Q1 Grant Shapps: Sir Gus,
I wonder if you would agree with me that it is a pretty good indication of a
Civil Service department which is failing when they have to set up their own
special helpline for MPs to contact them?
Sir Gus O’Donnell:
No, I think that is a very good example of providing
a good service to you.
Q2 Grant Shapps: The way I
am thinking about this is if it were not for two categories of cases, the
Child Support Agency cases and Immigration and Nationality Directorate IND
cases, I would probably have half the number of people turn up at my
surgeries each week. That is probably the experience of most of us round
here. Those are two organisations which I think you would probably accept
are clearly failing. It seems to me it is the failing ones which require
special helplines for Members of Parliament to contact you in order to move
cases up the chain. Is that the way it works, that there is a special
helpline when things are going wrong? I struggle to think of a department
with a special helpline where there are problems that cannot be addressed
via the usual channels.
Sir Gus O’Donnell:
If you think of the degree of difficulty of what both
those departments are trying to handle. For example, if you take the Child
Support Agency, this is something that is incredibly hard. In the past it
was dealt with by our courts and there were issues then about the difficulty
of it and lots of dissatisfied customers, but they would not blame civil
servants because they would be problems with the courts. Now we have got a
Child Support Agency, which I understand had cross party support, they are
dealing with people who are generally in conflict and who are possibly not
co-operating. It does not surprise me that there are disputes in that
area. When you go to the IND there are also people who are quite often in
dispute. Those are the difficult areas and that is where you are going to
get lots of cases. I predict whatever system we have in line for things
like child support you will be kept very busy in your constituency dealing
with people who dispute the cases.
Q3 Grant Shapps: I accept
what you are saying entirely, particularly about the CSA where clearly it
has come about through family breakdown which has much wider issues than the
Civil Service can possibly resolve. However, in one of those departments
there are six people - five people when I called up because somebody was off
sick - handling 30,000 cases and they were prioritised according to the
person I was speaking to, as green, amber and red, and one that no-one was
supposed to know about called a red star, and what an MP could do by calling
up and finally getting through was to move it up one level in that, whereas
ordinary members of the public would be expected to wait around for hours on
the helpline and usually then not to get their response dealt with at all.
They are self-confessed, over-worked, over- whelmed civil servants and I am
interested to know what you think should be done about that.
Sir Gus O’Donnell:
In all of these areas where we are having problems -
and this is an example where a capability review would help us identify ---
Q4 Grant Shapps: Or more
staff possibly?
Sir Gus O’Donnell:
Exactly. There will be various elements to
solutions. There will be one about is it policy changes and I do not
think we should shy away from that. Is it that, yes, we just need to put
more resources into it. I know the newly appointed head of the CSA is
looking again at the IT systems and whether they are right for case-handling
in terms of the numbers they have got, but it is a difficult situation.
They start with some backlogs and it is a very complex policy area.
Q5 Grant Shapps: Are you
aware, to draw out an example of the inefficiency within the CSA, that if
somebody’s direct debit falls due on a Sunday, at the beginning of the next
week they will receive a letter telling them that their payment is overdue
even though it has been paid on that day and it must mean that one in seven
instances are sent reminders. Can you even start to calculate how much that
must be costing? I would be interested to hear the figure. Obviously you
will not have it with you now.
Sir Gus O’Donnell:
Curiously enough, I do not have that figure!
Q6 Grant Shapps: Were you
aware of the problem?
Sir Gus O’Donnell:
I am aware that there are a number of structural
problems at the CSA, yes.
Q7 Chairman: Perhaps you
can find out if what Grant is saying is true and then you can write and tell
us what you are going to do about it.
Sir Gus O’Donnell:
I will get the head of the CSA to respond to you.
Q8 Grant Shapps: Clearly
you accept there are problems in the CSA. We all know there are. We accept
that these are wide problems which go way beyond the Civil Service and into
society. When an organisation is set up and is so ineffective and has
failed so completely and utterly and continues to fail years later, who
should be taking the can for this?
Sir Gus O’Donnell:
Like I say, they are dealing with a difficult area.
I feel responsible for all those civil servants who are operating, as you
say, in very difficult circumstances in that department, trying to do the
job as best they can, working very intensively, so it is for me to support
them, but in terms of can I help them do what they want to do, which is
deliver a first-class service, then, yes, I am very keen - and there is a
new Head of the CSA - to talk to him about how he can ensure it will go up
the route to DWP to Leigh Lewis, the new Permanent Secretary, when he takes
over from Richard. This is one of the key areas we must address. I am very
aware of these issues. In the same way as you have constituents I have
friends and other routes in to tell me precisely all these sorts of stories.
Q9 Grant Shapps: This
department had only six people but there were only five on that day because
one was ill and clearly part of the solution I can tell you, without going
into any kind of comprehensive assessment of it, is that there are just are
not enough staff there. Whilst I have said that more staff is part of the
answer, surely somebody should be losing their job over this kind of
catastrophe? Perhaps you have an opinion whether that should happen within
the Civil Service or at a political level, I do not know, but somebody
should be carrying the can.
Sir Gus O’Donnell:
Sure. I will only go down that route if I could
define precisely what the causes of the problems were.
Q10 Grant Shapps: Because
it is complex we never really get to an answer then?
Sir Gus O’Donnell:
Because it is complex if we do not know what the real
causes are then I think it would be wrong to blame anyone. You have got a
new Head of CSA coming in there and he is trying to sort things out. The
staff who are there are trying their best to implement policies.
Q11 Grant Shapps: A final
thing, I cannot stress, and I am sure other Members around here will back me
up on this, just what a mess it is in. It is incredible the stories that
people come back with, the amount of casework taken up with the CSA, and I
mentioned the IND at the beginning. Without those two government
departments I would probably not need to run surgeries every other week.
Sir Gus O’Donnell:
Can I give you one piece of optimism to look at.
When I was at the Cambridge court, they have a brand new court building that
has excellent facilities for disadvantaged witnesses, for example, one of
the things they have got there is a mediation service where if there are
couples in dispute, if it is an issue about finance or whatever, they put
them into mediation. They do not go anywhere near courts, they mediate, and
they have something like an 85 per cent success rate doing that without
going near the system. I just wonder if we could not find ways to use
mediation more.
Q12 Grant Shapps: I am
sure that is right on a general note. Finally, is it within your remit to
say that this person has systematically failed and “I am afraid we are going
to have to ask you to leave the Civil Service, in fact you will get the
sack, because the computer system has not worked or there is such appalling
mismanagement within this department”? Is that something you would ever do
or consider?
Sir Gus O’Donnell:
The Head of the CSA reports to the permanent
secretary for the Department of Work and Pensions who in turn reports to
me. If there were something where there were systematic failings and I
thought it was individuals who should be held to account who were not
fulfilling their job then obviously ---
Q13 Grant Shapps: I wonder
how bad an organisation would have to look before you would think it was a
systematic failure then?
Sir Gus O’Donnell:
You have to sort out the causes of failure.
Grant Shapps:
More than just the MPs’ helpline!
