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[bbtzs]

Broadside, I suggest you go to both and time the walks and the convenience of the route and the relative advantages and disadvantages.

I dont think they compare at all. WGC has considerable benefit in the facilities close to the Railway and bus station whereas Hatfield has very little nearby or so convenient.

Having said that exactly what point are you trying to make. I don't think that is the Councils fault for a start, if anything it is a bit of history.

I'm really not sure why this 'mines bigger than yours' argument is raging. So What? The towns are different, period!

[jonmorris]

Jonmorris,
What is actually the point of your post?
It seems that whenever you comment about Hatfield, you punctuate your
posts with anti Hatfield criticisms. 

My point is to ask why we're wasting time comparing how good one town railway station is to another, especially if there's a political motive - as if any politician had a real say in the route of the ECML!

As for my positive and negative comments, it's a thing called BALANCE. It's trying to acknowledge the pros and cons (like Hatfield having a better selection of buses, used or not) and not just pushing one argument to the death.

This forum seems to lack balance now that an election is coming up and people want to score points and don't actually seem to give a damn about the town - just using the town as ammunition.

Now we're comparing walking distances, I am amazed. WGC to JL or Hatfield to Asda? Let's compare stations for how close they are to a pub. I'll start with Hatfield and the Hatfield Arms...

[jonmorris]

Another thing about WGC; it's more expensive to get a ticket to London... 

[Broadside]

Guys,
Initially I responded to Annes post where she states that WGC's station has the advantage over Hatfield's.
I disagreed and gave a few examples of how Hatfield station had the advantage over WGC's.
As the furore raged, you two fanned the flames of inter town rivalry.
There is no political point to my observations and I couldn't care less about
WGC's station cos I never use it. I know where it is though.
I hope that WGC's commuters also enjoy returning to their station after work, and hope they can find somewhere else to shop as the Howard Centre shops may well be closed up after 5.30.
Still, they could always get off at Hatfield and catch one of the millions of buses that go to the Galleria - where the shops stay open til 8pm.
 
 

[Anne]

It seems to me that if 'we', the residents of Welwyn Hatfield, want regeneration in Hatfield Town Centre, then we need to optimise on all the benefits that we have already, and determine what else could be added.

WGC will have benefits from having a train station within its town centre. Hatfield will not have these benefits. There is nothing wrong with this; it's just different.

If 'we', the residents, want to entice out-of-town shoppers into our towns to create jobs and boost our incomes, then, maybe, we need to plan on directing those 'customers' who are on train links towards WGC, like boasting a John Lewis and now Debenhams, or whatever. Then if this were the case we would need to have a similar type of strategy for Hatfield. Nothing wrong with this, just different. The first idea that springs into my mind is 'free carparking' which is not available in WGC...

Let's ponder on that...

[jonmorris]

Guys,
Initially I responded to Annes post where she states that WGC's station has the advantage over Hatfield's.
I disagreed and gave a few examples of how Hatfield station had the advantage over WGC's.
As the furore raged, you two fanned the flames of inter town rivalry.
There is no political point to my observations and I couldn't care less about
WGC's station cos I never use it. I know where it is though.
I hope that WGC's commuters also enjoy returning to their station after work, and hope they can find somewhere else to shop as the Howard Centre shops may well be closed up after 5.30.
Still, they could always get off at Hatfield and catch one of the millions of buses that go to the Galleria - where the shops stay open til 8pm.

If you never use WGC station then why are you so bothered about comparing Hatfield station with it? Why get involved? I've pointed out that WGC wins on most points, but it's totally irrelevant as it's Hatfield station that I use every day. Stevenage is better still, but why would I want to go there?

How many commuters come back to their station and want to go shopping? In the last 7 years of commuting, I nearly always leave the station and go straight home! Still, you can walk out of WGC and over to John Lewis which is open to 8 (ditto Sainsbury's), while I can come out of Hatfield and go to Costcutter (formerly Spa) or walk into town to go to Asda. Like WGC, the shops in the town 'may well be closed up after 5.30'. Commuters won't jump on a bus to the Galleria.

Although many buses pass the Galleria, it's not immediately obvious to visitors who don't know the area. There's no free shuttle, as provided at some major shopping centres (e.g Bluewater), for example.

It beggars belief that this thread is now about how good two train stations are. Commuters in WGC presumably live there. Ditto Welwyn North, Knebworth, Welham Green. They're not going to suddenly switch to Hatfield even if they turned it into Bluewater.

[Broadside]

Jonmorris,
Anne made the 'unfavourable' comments about Hatfield's station as compared to WGC's. I responded to the contrary and provided some evidence.
 
Whilst Anne says WGC has the advantage of being in / by its town centre,
I commented that it didn't do WGC commuters much good as, for example, the Howard Centre is virtually useless to commuters (the main users of the station) as it is closed when they return from work.
You then, unintentionally, appear to support my observations with your statement "How many commuters want to go shopping at their station after work"
Exactly. So there is little value in it being there.
Anne says that if the Howard Centre is closed, commuters can still walk to
John Lewis which is open til 8pm.
Fine. But that walk is still a fair old way for tired legs.
Please be reminded that Hatfield's station is sited between its town centre and Olde Town, loads of pubs and restaurants are near by, there is major bus terminal, busy taxi rank, loads of housing within 400 yards, it is positioned on the Great North Road and bang opposite a major (and proper) tourist attraction - Hatfield House, there is free off peak parking and a
cycle path running past it?
So, for the last time (surely) why are WGC station commuters more advantaged to those of Hatfield? 
 

[jonmorris]

WGC station is right slap bang in the middle of a shopping centre unlike Hatfield! There's no value or lack of value in it being there; it just is. The station is there because it's where the railway line is, which has been around for quite a long time! Neither WGC or Hatfield stations can ever move, and the only way things could change for Hatfield is if the town centre was relocated to the station.

Commuters are the main users for any railway line, and pay the most to enable there to be cheaper off-peak services that are often run at a loss. Why are we even comparing things for commuters who are only using the station to get away from Hatfield (or WGC) instead of staying and working in their own communities? They go to work, they go home.

If you look at off-peak or evening usage, I'm sure more people are going to WGC. However, I don't have the stats to back this up; it's just my personal assumption and may well be wrong.

[Broadside]

Jonmorris,
Well done, you're getting there.
You've noticed that neither station moves. I'd agree with that.
I also agree with you that commuters are the main users of each station.
I agree that WGC's station is on the edge (not in the middle) of its town centre.
I also think we're agreed that WGC commuters receive little benefit by their
station being sited next to a shopping centre that is generally closed to them.
Like you, I don't have any data about shoppers visiting WGC by rail, but I'd wager not many.
Therefore, will you now agree with me that, for all the examples I've given, Hatfield commuters are not in any way disadvantaged by the siting of their station as compared to WGC's?

[trekbat]

The location of WGC's station does not matter as this thread is not about WGC.

In any case, Hatfield town centre is a comparable distance to Campus West (and apart from the footbridge - it's flat and not an uphill walk).

There certainly is a case for improving the route from Hatfield rail station to the town centre (like widening the footpath connecting Cranbourne Road and Endymion Road and / or a new route that could run through the park behind Countess Anne School. Plus, two-way access from the platforms itself - as can be found in WGC), along with better signposting.

Unless they've changed things, when I was commuting, season ticket holders were allowed to break journey at intermediate stations without any penalty or additional costs - so IF you have something worth stopping for London commuters heading north of Hatfield could be tempted to break journey at Hatfield on occasion.

Returning to the vision for Hatfield (with another addition in bold)

Hatfield has a number of factors that could be used to promote the town - its rich Hatfield history (especially its Tudor, road, rail and aviation heritage); Hatfield House (already attracts 250,000 annual visitors); its strategic location (especially its proximity to London); its excellent transport links (including to the Eurostar's London terminal); its university (and the youth and diversity that it contains); its surrounding lush countryside...

I can see a Hatfield with a Tudor theme Old Hatfield (and watermill) promoting the ancient nature of Hatfield, with boutiques and stores for the premium market. A market town style town centre - more small shops and stalls than big name stores with their any town, any place offerings (favourable to arts and crafts and young entrepreneurs). A food and entertainment offer like in Covent Garden - with students from some 80 countries it could have an international flavour. An aviation museum on the airfield that
enshrines Hatfield's global importance (the firms - de Havilland, Hawker Siddeley, British Aerospace, Airspeed; the events - King's Cup Air Races, SBAC show - better known as the Farnborough Air Show; take off point for the Iraqi and Egyptian Air Forces; the organisations - Stage & Screen Aero Club, RAF Flying Club; the people - Geoffrey de Havilland and his sons - 2 killed flying from Hatfield, Alex Henshaw, Amy Johnson, John Derry, Jean Batten, George Errington...).

From the old town to the new to the airfield (and, if time and energy permits, a ramble in the Hertfordshire countryside) - Hatfield could be a great day out. It could attract people and tourists from London and bring income and investment flooding in - which in turn brings employment, opportunity and wealth.

New Barnfield area - the Central Resources Library could be moved to a more central location (like the proposed new town centre or the airfield) and this former school site could be converted to non toxic industrial / office / shops (or a combination). The hilltop with the vistas of St Albans and Welwyn Garden City, together with Bunchleys and the other pond could be turned into a public space. The lower slopes and surrounding areas could be used for housing.

Siting a multipurpose stadium (football, athletics...) in the area of the UH's Park and Ride off Southway would offer easy access via the motorway and also be an attractive venue for concerts as it would be easy to get to from London.

And, while I'm dreaming, there would be a trolleybus (less expensive than a tram or light railway and easier to install) connecting Hatfield and St Albans.

For those people who are genuinely interested in Hatfield and would like to see this dream turned into a reality you have the chance to help make it happen. The consultation on the new Hatfield town centre proposals closes at the end of the month. Please make your comments directly or via your ward councillors [Mighty Hatfield, please take note].

http://www.welhat.gov.uk/index.aspx?articleid=2000

http://www.welhat.gov.uk/index.aspx?articleid=2063

[jonmorris]

Wow, you really are dreaming now!!!

[trekbat]

Wow, you really are dreaming now!!!

You don't have to be a professor to realise that it ALL won't happen in one go or even in a few years.

There is nothing here that is not possible or that far fetched. The two way access from the platforms is already part of the new rail station plan, if I understood correctly.

However, there needs to be an overall plan (if the CRL from New Barnfield is to be moved to another location where would it go in Hatfield; if there's a stadium it would make sense to have a shuttle bus service - sure Uno would welcome the extra revenue - to the railway station) so that smaller component plans, like the new town centre, fit into the wider picture.

It will need to be marketed to attract investment (but selling space in the new town centre or other bits would be easier).

It will also need a different mindset among the authorities and clearly some local residents as well.

[jonmorris]

My vision of the future sadly doesn't revolve around the CRL, which is a place that nobody seems to go to. I think you're going to have to let that one go eventually.

I would love to see the following;

a) Revamp of the old town. The plans put forward to redesign the road and access to the old town look great.

b) The complete rebuilding of Hatfield railway station, with the multi-level car park, retail and improved access for cars, taxis and buses. This would also allow 12-car trains to call, and be fully accessible. Sadly, NR sold off some key land which stops the full expansion (and could allow car parking on the other side of the station).

c) The completion of the town centre improvements, and incentives given to retailers so that some 'big names' move in which will draw people in. Without them, the small retailers stand no chance. The problem is the big names will potentially leave the second their rates rise, unless they are making sufficient profit. No shop is a charity (not even charity shops!) so - like the library - we must use the facilities or expect to lose them.

d) Hatfield House to become less greedy on its admission charges and what it charges to people having events/shows there. They also seem to prefer people coming by road, and don't appear to support the station (such that the station was hardly used by anyone for the fireworks). Work with FCC or any other TOC to offer combined rail/entry tickets, promote the 2for1 offer (does HH support this at all?) and encourage people to go by rail over car - perhaps even subsidising extra rail services, or lengthened trains, as happens for some sporting events and concerts.

e) Improved cycle paths (which seems to be happening, although I'm not sure the end result will be that special), road lighting and other highways improvements to make the area easier to drive around, walk or cycle. The subways in town should be removed, as it isn't safe and all of these old relics of 1950s thinking need to be banished to history or perhaps forgotten about completely.

f) Further improvements to the Galleria, with better shops (this is also happening) and a designated shuttle that runs to the station. Show the driver your ordinary train ticket and the shuttle is then free, allowing the Galleria to advertise free travel to the shops - but without stepping on the toes of other bus services/operators that would lose revenue if everyone opted to fill the shuttles to get to the station from the houses around the Galleria.

It is quite easy to make Hatfield look 'more presentable' and you'll notice that I've not mentioned anything about any historical aspects, or the opening of a museum etc. These may bring in the 'tourist trade' but I'm thinking a bit bigger than that. Things that benefit the residents. Even attracting more shoppers to the Galleria is good for residents as it ensures we retain decent shops, restaurants etc. Of course, this will no doubt come at the expense of the town centre, which brings us back to square one.

I said it ages ago, it would probably be better to turn the town centre into even more housing, with a few local shops, a pub and Asda, and move the town centre to the Galleria and District Centre. Get a bank or two to move there, open a post office, bring back a chemist etc - and that has the new purpose built bus station that many buses pass through but never pick up or drop off any people - and run buses from there to the station.

I am not saying that because I'm closer to that than the town, but because it is already 80% there. It's not even a long walk from the town centre. The road that links the two, passing the swimming pool, could even get a bus shuttle (or tram) of its own.

[Broadside]

Jonmorris,
You say that "you're thinking of the residents". Why didn't you comment on the obvious community facility that Trekbat mentioned - a football stadium that includes other sports - planning permission exists you know. But the UOH are being devious about fulfilling their pledges to the community.
Nothing new there!
What d'ya think?
 

[jonmorris]

I didn't purposely ignore it, I just know nothing about it. I am certainly not against it, any more than building a museum or something else for both residents and visitors alike.