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[Mighty Hatfield]

I get what you are saying, i really do, and as i said, i worked for Herts police for 5 years.

But, to the point, how will this affect welwyn hatfield (as thats what the campaign is about)

WGC is already unmanned (front desk) for long periods.
Hatfield, as HQ for the Central Area, wont be unmanned.

I dont see modern policing requiring a call operator having detailed knowledge of any particular area I am in. Do you think they do a bad job at the moment? Perhaps Hatfield Girl could pick up on that point.

As far as i can tell, no-one has mentioned overseas call centres.

Can you expand on the "personalities involved"? obviously im here, loudly stating that a merger wont harm things overall, and id appreciate it if you know something i dont, to let me know lest i look like a berk.

Has it been confirmed that if a merger takes place, that the dual county hq WONT actually be in WGC?  i mean, if it merged, and we had the HQ at Stanborough Lakes, wouldnt that make the campaign look very silly?

[bbtzs]

Just making the point that if you want a suitable response it helps if the receiver has a clue about what you are talking about. Local knowledge counts in policing. I cant account for the lack of geography that people have learnt about their country!

I had some vandals pass my house and do damage. They carried on down the cul-de-sac making lots of noise. I rang the Police and told them where they could go to pick these people up because the only way out was through a footpath at the far end. It was hopeless, the person on the other end had no idea where I was or what was being talked about. By the time they had taken down the details and had it explained there was precious little time left so no suprise it failed. The car that responded was sent straight to my house no-one was sent to the end of the footpath, not even the officers knew of it because they came from another town. On the way home more damage was done by what I would guess was the same crowd.

There was a time when the people you spoke to had some local knowledge and an attachment to the area. They could multitask and were as anxious to catch the villains as the officers and victims. The further you move away from the action the more difficult it is to provide the service needed. I saw it gradually deteriorate and was very please to leave a sadly sinking ship. As long as they answer in the number of rings necessary the job is done.

[Mighty Hatfield]

Just making the point that if you want a suitable response it helps if the receiver has a clue about what you are talking about. Local knowledge counts in policing. I cant account for the lack of geography that people have learnt about their country!

I had some vandals pass my house and do damage. They carried on down the cul-de-sac making lots of noise. I rang the Police and told them where they could go to pick these people up because the only way out was through a footpath at the far end. It was hopeless, the person on the other end had no idea where I was or what was being talked about. By the time they had taken down the details and had it explained there was precious little time left so no suprise it failed. The car that responded was sent straight to my house no-one was sent to the end of the footpath, not even the officers knew of it because they came from another town. On the way home more damage was done by what I would guess was the same crowd.

There was a time when the people you spoke to had some local knowledge and an attachment to the area. They could multitask and were as anxious to catch the villains as the officers and victims. The further you move away from the action the more difficult it is to provide the service needed. I saw it gradually deteriorate and was very please to leave a sadly sinking ship. As long as they answer in the number of rings necessary the job is done.

I take your points on board, and have had similar experiences.

Im sure you know, but its a very difficult job. There are very good community teams in welwyn and hatfield that im sure know their areas very well. Wether they are always the people that (can) respond, is of course a different matter.

The point im making, is that these community teams, there is no reason why they would suddenly vanish due to a merger. Yet that is the sort of message this campaign is trying to spread. There is no excuse for it.

[bbtzs]

Yes Community teams are  worthwhile but, in terms of trauma, it is the urgent jobs that need an appropriate response and they are not there for that or designed for that purpose. It is just as important in my mind that the people at the centre receiving calls  are locally based and able to respond appropriately.
I guess that I am plain old fashioned because I do remember days when this service could be given and multitasking was done, no job descriptions, just the job that came first. Somehow that has got lost.

The community teams provide feel good type policing, I havent seen statistics (and doubt I would believe them anyway) about their actual effectiveness. I doubt they do much more than re-assure.

BTW I saw no such implication (Of Community teams vanishing) in the anti-merger campaign but then again I confess I didn't look at it from that point of view. Of course, the further you remove the HQ from the community the harder it is for local people to get their voice heard. Do the Scots feel that Parliament is close enough?

[Mighty Hatfield]

I think this has been a sadly unavoidable casualty in the modernisation of the police, the ground they now cover, the amount of people etc. I dont see any similar issues arising from this merger however. The local bobbie doesnt know everyone by name now, its not going to somehow go further with cars from Beds looking at roadmaps of Welwyn totally lost.

The thing with police stats, unlike most stats, they almost always need explaining and putting into context. This was one of the jobs i kind of worked in, and believe me, its not easy to explain, Not easy putting them together either!

Fair enough but thats one of the messages of the campaign. I think that as long as you have a police station, a police officer to call on, where the HQ is becomes irrelevant. Do people in WGC have their voice heard more than people in Borehamwood? If you have a problem, that for some reason you need to speak personally with a senior officer, do you actually go to the chief constable in WGC? (the idea you can pop in for a chat with the chief constable to discuss graffitti or whatever is laughable)  or do you, more likely, go to the inspector based at your local station?
 
Again, not things you are saying bbtzs, but im just trying to dispell some of the fears this campaign is trying to raise in a most underhand manner. 

[bbtzs]

Most people in Herts dont know where the HQ is and it is not important in that respect. I do however believe that the larger area means a diminution of understanding, a good reason why the Met areas in Herts were taken back.

I know there will be arguments for and against but because you are against doesn't mean you are trying to be underhand. I liken this to the EU but on a tiny scale. The power moves higher up the scale, the democratic representation reduces and the decisions have to be made 'for the greater good', not the local needs. Admirable in a way except that it is unnecessary and will not save money. It never does. They just find bigger and grander ways of spending it. I have been there doing it and dreaming up ideas to add on to next years budgets.

Anyway, you know which way I feel. It is up to others to say if they see the same 'underhand motives' as you do.

[Hatfield Girl]

I think that both of you have some vailid points.
 
MH, There are some departments where it doesn't really matter where they are run from.  These are the ones who don't contain operational staff, like the one you worked in.  I think it's a few years now since you left?  Things have changed.  Budgets are tighter and savings are being made, whether that be by not opening all stations 24/7 or turning off power to the computers at night or joint licences for software. 
 
When it comes to front line stuff, BBTZS is right, the closer the better.  The Met is a great example of when organisations get too big.  They're a nightmare to deal with, even neighbouring boroughs don't talk to each other, and as for trying to get information out of them - forget it!
 
There are some places where collaborative working is important which is why there are Regional Units set up.  Herts and Beds are part of the Eastern Region which has staff from six forces.  These units deal with cross border crime involving organised crime groups who use the motorways to travel all over.  There is also something called Mutual Aid which is where something serious happens and officers from other forces are brought in to deal with the live incident. 
 
I think that on a local level, people probably won't notice much change because there will still be a certain number of Intervention Officers allocated to each area.  However, I do believe that there would and has been a detremental effect on what happens behind the front lines or departments connected to the front lines.  I don't suppose that senior officers would agree but then they only know what they are told by managers under them, like in any big organisation. 
 
The bottom line is that Herts doen't get it's fair share of the money pot from Government. 

[Mighty Hatfield]

I think that both of you have some vailid points.
 
MH, There are some departments where it doesn't really matter where they are run from.  These are the ones who don't contain operational staff, like the one you worked in.  I think it's a few years now since you left?  Things have changed.  Budgets are tighter and savings are being made, whether that be by not opening all stations 24/7 or turning off power to the computers at night or joint licences for software. 

They were doing that when i was still there, i used to actually order the software licenses, couldnt believe how much they cost!
 

When it comes to front line stuff, BBTZS is right, the closer the better.  The Met is a great example of when organisations get too big.  They're a nightmare to deal with, even neighbouring boroughs don't talk to each other, and as for trying to get information out of them - forget it!

Absolutely, thats why im glad that police officers will still very much be based in Hertfordshire, regardless of any merger. I also think that Herts and their neighbour Beds, will be in even closer communication once merged, inter organisational communications should be just as strong as they currently are between the three large areas currently within Herts. I have no idea how Beds operate, though as you mentioned, they do have the added resposibility to police around Luton Airport. I still think they must have a pretty sophisticated and experienced 'fraud squad'.
 

There are some places where collaborative working is important which is why there are Regional Units set up.  Herts and Beds are part of the Eastern Region which has staff from six forces.  These units deal with cross border crime involving organised crime groups who use the motorways to travel all over.  There is also something called Mutual Aid which is where something serious happens and officers from other forces are brought in to deal with the live incident. 
 
I think that on a local level, people probably won't notice much change because there will still be a certain number of Intervention Officers allocated to each area.  However, I do believe that there would and has been a detremental effect on what happens behind the front lines or departments connected to the front lines.  I don't suppose that senior officers would agree but then they only know what they are told by managers under them, like in any big organisation. 
 
The bottom line is that Herts doen't get it's fair share of the money pot from Government. 

Lets hope the situation would be only improved if it was part of a brand new merged superforce? As with everything, only time will tell but i maintain my view that this campaign is ill advised scaremongering, pointing towards things that are never going to happen while ignoring the less interesting and more likely scenarios that would arise from a merger.

[Hatfield Girl]

It's only going to be a 'Superforce' if they pick the best bits and use them.

[mythoughts]

Hertfordshire Police has been deemed one of the best performers in the country according to latest HMIC figures. Indeed, it was one of only four forces in the country to receive a "triple good" rating.
 
However, Bedfordshire Police only scored a relatively meagre "triple fair" rating.
 
Top-line details:
http://www.hmic.gov.uk/SiteCollectionDocuments/PRC/PRC_GOV_20100311.pdf
 
The nitty-gritty:
http://www.hmic.gov.uk/SiteCollectionDocuments/PRC/PRC_ALF_20100311.pdf

 
What does this mean for a full-blown merger I wonder...? Will a super-force not be that super for Hertfordshire's residents afterall? Will Bed's average performance drag overall performance down in a fully-merged force? Should all merger plans at least be called off until Beds pulls its socks-up?
 
Still, could have been worse. Consider this from 2007:
  Bedfordshire Police trail in league tables

Bedfordshire has been ranked as the worst police force in England and Wales, according to government figures released today, as Ministers warned forces that their funding was about to "flat-line".

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/crime/article2621492.ece
 

[Hatfield Girl]

MH are you now beginning to see the light?
 
I overheard someone say the other day that one of the already mergerd departments spends an estimated 80% of its time working on Beds crimes, which means that Herts is paying for 50% but only getting 20.

[smallvoice]

I understand that Hertfordshire (because it is the larger force) contributes 60% of the various budgets versus Bedfordshire's 40%.  That makes the 'deal' even worse for Hertfordshire residents if police are having to focus more resources on Bedfordshire crimes. 

The HMIC figures are interesting.  Hertfordshire rates as 'excellent' for service delivery versus Bedfordshire's 'fair'.  Does that mean a merged force will be 'good'? 

[Hatfield Girl]

The HMIC figures are interesting.  Hertfordshire rates as 'excellent' for service delivery versus Bedfordshire's 'fair'.  Does that mean a merged force will be 'good'? 

That's the million dollar question.

[smallvoice]

One imagines that Hertfordshire Constabulary has done well to be one of only 4 forces to achieve triple 'good' ratings given the current constraints and economic climate.  Collaboration/merger is supposed to be an efficiency drive to save costs and pool resources.  Common sense would say to me that a force that is 'good' collaborating/merging with a force that is 'fair', and having greater combined challenges in respect of funding and resources, is going to move in one direction ... and it aint good.  Not good for Hertfordshire Constabulary nor for Hertfordshire tax payers.

[Mighty Hatfield]

MH are you now beginning to see the light?
 
I overheard someone say the other day that one of the already mergerd departments spends an estimated 80% of its time working on Beds crimes, which means that Herts is paying for 50% but only getting 20.

I think the reality that your perhaps missing out on is that the merger is being done with the absolute consent, indeed with the hard work of Hertfordshire Constabulary. Unless you can tell us different? Not things youve overheard, but an actual indication that this is against the wishes of the force.

Otherwise im inclined to trust the judgement of a force that is able to achieve such a fantastic rating.