Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

Hi there reader
Do you find this message annoying?
Why not register and make a post to get rid of it?

[MikeHobday]

According to the Primary Care Trust, who are currently setting up an urgent care centre in Hemel Hempstead (and I'm assuming this is the basis for their plans for the QEII):

The urgent care centre will be able to see and treat about 65% of people who currently attend the existing A&E department and will be open 7 days a week.

Did the PCT lie then when, DURING THE CONSULTATION, it said:

Urgent care centre
Approximately 85% of the work which currently goes through a typical accident and emergency department could be dealt with at this service.

http://www.enherts-pct.nhs.uk/consultation/Content.asp?id=SX4168-A77F6836

---------------------------
After the consultation, the figure has gone down to only 65% according to Mike's link to the West Herts PCT.
[url=http://www.enherts-pct.nhs.uk/consultation/Content.asp?id=SX4168-A77F6836]http://www.enherts-pct.nhs.uk/consultation/Content.asp?id=SX4168-A77F6836[/url]
 
Oh, and by the way, regarding the planned UCC for the QEII, the East North Herts Trust is now saying that only 60 per cent will be treated at an UCC opposed to the A&E.
][url=http://www.enherts-tr.nhs.uk/OurChangingHospitals/HospitalsQEIIUrgentCareCentre.html]http://www.enherts-tr.nhs.uk/OurChangingHospitals/HospitalsQEIIUrgentCareCentre.html[/url]

Lies or incompetence, which is it?

According to the emailed reply from the acute hospital trust, it's incompetence! They tell me:

I suspect that there is a very simple and reassuring solution to your question.  The figure quoted on the PCT website link you provided would appear to be an error and should read 65%.  Indeed if you go to the actual consultation document and look at the bottom of page 30, you will find this figure quoted:

http://www.enherts-pct.nhs.uk/Documents/consultation/FULLCONSULTATIONDOCUMENT.pdf

For our own planning purposes here at the Trust, we working to a very similar figure - "....around 60%....." - as you have pointed out.

Having spoken with Matt Adcock at the PCT, I am sure that he and his colleagues will be grateful to you for spotting the unintended typo on their web pages and will seek to correct it asap.

The document linked to says:
"Urgent care centres cover the minor injuries, illnesses and ailments that form 65% of what is currently seen in A&E departments. The centres will include diagnostics and treatment areas for wound stitching, sprains and minor fractures."
 
MT - do you have any more information from your researches?[/] 

[mythoughts]

I suspect that there is a very simple and reassuring solution to your question.  The figure quoted on the PCT website link you provided would appear to be an error and should read 65%
[/][/]

[]
[/][/]
They are in a complete spin. They've just changed the original 85% figure that was in the consutation content link - but not 65% to 60%!! Luckily, I took a pdf copy and printed it this morning.....
 
http://www.enherts-pct.nhs.uk/consultation/Content.asp?id=SX4168-A77F6836
 
If they are going to rewrite documents as we investigate them then that's disgusting. Instead they should put an error message at the bottom of the page. You can't rewrite and republish consultation documents after the consulation...that's unethical if not illegal.

[disgruntled]

Well done mythoughts

Keep it up.

Where are you Grant?

[MikeHobday]

As Mythoughts says...
 
Here's the reply from the Primary Care Trust:

Many thanks for your note. I am picking this up as Anne is not in the office this morning. I understand that _____ from E and N NHS Trust has also contacted you and advised that the '85%'figure quoted is an error.

I do apologise for the confusion and alarm this typo has caused and can advise you that we have now corrected it so that it reflects the percentage outlined in our formal consultation document. This is the 65% of patients going to A&E that we were expecting would be able to be seen at our Urgent Care Centre - very close to the figure that the acute Trust is working on.

I appreciate you pointing this out to us - it is helpful.
 

The question is (I'm especially asking Mythoughts): are they right? We've seen, and both you and I have taken copies of, a figure of 85%. They've now pointed to a contemporary document saying 65%. Was the figure of 85% used anywhere else?
 
I'd be more inclined to throw the book at them if this wasn't a one-off "error."
 
I've also asked why they have clearly reduced the figure from 65% to 60%.

Mike

[kaz]

The document linked to says:
"Urgent care centres cover the minor injuries, illnesses and ailments that form 65% of what is currently seen in A&E departments. The centres will include diagnostics and treatment areas for wound stitching, sprains and minor fractures."
 

 
so the Urgent Care Centres will cover the very areas we were told the Polyclinics/GP led centres would cover?  Compare our Ascots Lane portacabins with the Redbridge Polyclinic in this video.   
 
** Seven polyclinics open in London **
Seven new generation polyclinincs open in London, bringing a range of services under one roof.
<

http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/em/fr/-/1/hi/england/london/8024305.stm

>
 
 

[mythoughts]

Was the figure of 85% used anywhere else?

 
Yes it was. For starters, it was used in the main Appendix H of the main consultation document, page 8:

 
http://www.enherts-pct.nhs.uk/Documents/consultation/meeting/Appendix%20H%20-%20Glossary%20.pdf
 

[MikeHobday]

Was the figure of 85% used anywhere else?

 
Yes it was. For starters, it was used in the main Appendix H of the main consultation document, page 8:

 
http://www.enherts-pct.nhs.uk/Documents/consultation/meeting/Appendix%20H%20-%20Glossary%20.pdf
 

A good spot! Any more?
(I wonder if they'll amend this document! I'd better take a screen grab now!)

[mythoughts]

Well, that's two lots of 85% against one of 65% across the key consultation documents.  Indeed, a cursory glance at other trusts shows many are communicating that UCCs will take on 85% of A&E work when they close.  Perhaps they'll change their minds soon too and reammend their minutes/consultation documents?
 
The typos aside for a minute, is 60% really a satifactory level to be aiming at when compared with other trusts that reckon they can get 85%? Furthermore, can the Trust or PCT clarify whether or not the UCC for WGC will be 24-hour?
 
Finally, can both stop making mistakes when we're talking about life and death matters.
 
Will be back later...
 
 

[MikeHobday]

Just done a google search for "urgent care centre" and 85%.
http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&rlz=1T4DKUK_enGB313&q=%22urgent+care+centre%22+85%25&btnG=Search&meta=cr%3DcountryUK%7CcountryGB although some of these use the figure 85 in a different context.
 
PCTs using this figure - as well as East Herts - seem to include Rochdale, Oldham, Pennine and Bury. I can't immediately find others outside the North West.
 
Let's see what they say!

[mythoughts]

Two links side by side on the Trust's website as of 18.29 July 30th regarding changes to the Lister:
 

Typically these new centres will treat around 65% of the patients who would normally attend A&E today

 
http://www.enherts-tr.nhs.uk/OurChangingHospitals/HospitalsListerEmergencyInpatientServices.html
 

The urgent care centre will be able to treat around 60% of patients who would usually have to attend A&E

 
http://www.enherts-tr.nhs.uk/OurChangingHospitals/HospitalsListerUrgentCareCentre.html
 
 

[mythoughts]

The document linked to says:
"Urgent care centres cover the minor injuries, illnesses and ailments that form 65% of what is currently seen in A&E departments. The centres will include diagnostics and treatment areas for wound stitching, sprains and minor fractures."
 

 
so the Urgent Care Centres will cover the very areas we were told the Polyclinics/GP led centres would cover?  Compare our Ascots Lane portacabins with the Redbridge Polyclinic in this video.  
 
** Seven polyclinics open in London **
Seven new generation polyclinincs open in London, bringing a range of services under one roof.
< http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/em/fr/-/1/hi/england/london/8024305.stm#id8020000/8025100/8025196 >
 
 

Good point. In fact I mentioned previously in another thread that I thought the polyclinic/gp-led centre would morph to become the same thing. That could explain the temporary building?

Scenario:

One feels quite sick and goes to polyclinic. Polyclinic tells you "Ooh, you are really quite sick, can you pop over to the UCC please?"

"Oh my goodness, you are well done for unless we get you to the A&E at Lister. Hopefully, we can get you there in an ambulance with a paramedic just in case you get stuck in traffic...good luck to yer!" says UCC.

[mythoughts]

I see the East North Herts PCT has awarded the Cheshunt and Hertford Urgent Care Centre contracts to the East North Herts NHS Trust and Assura Lea Valley LLP consortium. More details about this and exactly what a UCC is here:
 

Staffed by GPs (doctors) and specially trained nurses, UCCs offer assessment and treatment for injuries such as wounds, sprains and minor fractures which can be accessed on a “walk-in” basis. This means that the new centres will be available to all patients and do not require people to be registered with specific GP practices.

 
http://www.enherts-pct.nhs.uk/Content.asp?id=SXE9C1-A77F80A4&cat=1203
 
Sounds just like a GP-led centre/polyclinic to me. That being so, it wouldn't surprise me if the East North Herts Trust in partnership with the likes of Ephedra who run the polyclinic at Ascots Lane will be awarded the QEII UCC contract if they bidded for it. Or that the new GP-led centre becomes the UCC when the QEII is knocked down and replaced by the tiny cottage hospital. In other words, I wonder if we'll only get two of the things we were promised.
 
 

[bbtzs]

I love it!

Read the article and it ends up saying
'The new urgent care centres are part of NHS Hertfordshire’s plan to provide more health services closer to home. The UCCS in both Cheshunt and Hertford are being piloted for 12 months to gauge demand for these services. '

Amazing. That seems quite the opposite of care that seems to be happening to me. My next appointment for a quite minor matter with no great urgency is at Hertford and I thought we did Orthopaedics here at WGC QE2.

[mythoughts]

Was the figure of 85% used anywhere else?

 
Yes it was. For starters, it was used in the main Appendix H of the main consultation document, page 8:

 
http://www.enherts-pct.nhs.uk/Documents/consultation/meeting/Appendix%20H%20-%20Glossary%20.pdf[/]
 

A good spot! Any more?
(I wonder if they'll amend this document! I'd better take a screen grab now!)

Very recent research shows that, in reality, the figure is likely to be between 10-30 per cent:

http://www.shapps.com/forum/index.php/topic,6493.msg52790/topicseen.html#msg52790

Would Nick Carver and Co. care to comment? Does the Trust still think that when they close down A&E at the QEII the replacement services will be able to treat 65 per cent of cases that would have previously been treated by the A&E department? What guarantees do they have?  What contingency plans and back-up-budgets do they have in place if it turns out the UCC can only treat 10-30 per cent of such cases with the rest having to travel up to the new A&E at The Lister?
 
What research have they conducted to prove the viability of such changes? Please don't tell me they've conducted none whatsoever.