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Author Topic: Ignorant health bosses cheer on QE2 closure  (Read 2157 times)

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Hatfield Girl

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Re: Ignorant health bosses cheer on QE2 closure
« Reply #30 on: July 29, 2009, 08:21:00 PM »
I think that the bottom line is that more money needs to be put into health full stop.  We need Super Hospitals in Hatfield and Stevenage, not bits of one spread over both sites.
 
Which ever way the decision had gone with regards to the locatin of A and E would have meant that someone lost out.  As it happens it's us.  The QEII is my nearest Hospital, my parents live ten miles the other side of the Lister.
 
The Health Service needs its funding sorted out.  It needs to end the post code lottery and remove county borders.  (I know someone who lives in Herts but her nearest hospital is the Luton and Dunstable but because that's in Beds she has to drive miles to St Albans for treatment.)  It needs increased funding for things like infertility, obesity, mental health, health education in schools, and preventative medicine.
 
At the end of the day, we're not going to get any of that because the country is skint.  More people out of work because they've lost their jobs means less tax money going into the pot.   Add to that the burden of people who can't be bothered to get a job, but who happily use the NHS without doing anything to pay for it.  Then there's health care tourists and immigrants who are also happy to come here and basically steel from our health service and the people who pay for it.
 
Sort that lot out boys and we may get the service we want.
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MikeHobday

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Re: Ignorant health bosses cheer on QE2 closure
« Reply #31 on: July 29, 2009, 08:31:59 PM »
On a personal note I sincerely hope your child makes a very quick and full recovery.
Hear, hear!
 
The thing is Mike that a few posts up you were embracing the urgent care centre, but now your stance is your against the closure of A+E and the replacement which is the urgent care centre.

If your against it then that means that even if they give us a urgent care centre lined with gold wallpaper your still against it on the principle of the matter that is they took our Major services away from a area that desperately needs them.
Apologies if I've been unclear. Let me try to explain. I strongly supported the promised Hatfield hospital. You'll recall that John Reid, then Secretary of State for Health, promised to support a bid from the Primary Care Trust for the new hospital. Then the Primary Care Trust, despite a rising budget, decided not to bid.

I agreed with the Primary Care Trust, and clear medical opinion, that larger hospitals provide better quality treatment than smaller hospitals. But I believed that Welwyn Hatfield, being a central location, was a better site than the north of Stevenage.

We all (politicians of all parties and supporters of none) fought against the Primary Care Trust. Sadly, we lost.

Sadly, too, I can't pretend to you that we'll get this decision reversed, and that we'll get the hospital we want. Neither, to be fair, can Grant Shapps.

If the Primary Care Trust wont change their mind maybe they need to be cut?
Perhaps they should. There are too many accountants on the board, and not enough people who understand the importance of representing the public's aspirations. I've argued for a long time that the Primary Care Trust is grossly incompetent. Would that I could persuade Ministers to sack them!

What we want is competent management of the tax income you take from us and deliver the Health & Education services to the standards we demand.

... Look at the total income and stop spending on items we have not given you the authority to spend on.

That will leave more than enough to build a new hospital and deliver the services we pay our taxes for.
I agree this is what politicians should focus on. Dodgy banking practices have landed the whole world in a dreadful mess, and all of us need to focus on what can be done both now and in the coming years to tackle this. But that's perhaps a subject for another thread?
 
I wish it were true that this could find us the money for another hospital. But, as I said sadly above, I'm not sure this is true. I've no doubt that both political parties will go into the general election promising to protect health spending. But with a (thankfully) aging population, and with public expectations of speed and quality of treatment (rightly) improving, a health budget linked to inflation will not keep pace with our needs.
 
Labour has massively increased NHS spending in recent years. And there's been massive improvement, for example in waiting times. But the days of such substantial increases are inevitably over for now.
 
 
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disgruntled

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Re: Ignorant health bosses cheer on QE2 closure
« Reply #32 on: July 29, 2009, 08:37:42 PM »
Whilst a huge income is available from the Tax take. The reality is that cutting Government spending is impossible overnight. The necessary cuts and streamlining will take many years. Labour have spent 12 years destroying it.

As for Mike Hobday criticising Grant for politicking, that is the same hypocritical rubbish we get from the Government all day long every day. Labour have run out of ideas. They now concentrate on picking holes in the opposition. The place is in such a mess that anyone expecting to be in the next government has to be extremely cautious about what is said. There is tough medicine ahead and no-one dare say it out loud.

Dear Mr Hobday please give up whingeing and come up with something new, rather than picking holes. It is your lot who got us into this fine screw up and entangled us in such a dreadful health, education, consitutional mess. You really ought to go and learn chess or something. You never know someone might be desperate for a partner who repeats himself over and over again and is totally predictable.

With respect bbtzs
Your post sounds like a soundbite for the Tories.

You are also making excuses for inaction.
Of course there are many costs which can be cut immediately.

Military would be one
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finely tuned

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Re: Ignorant health bosses cheer on QE2 closure
« Reply #33 on: July 29, 2009, 09:59:09 PM »
We all (politicians of all parties and supporters of none) fought against the Primary Care Trust. Sadly, we lost.
 

 
It doesn't end here and now Mike. We fight the decision all the way in fact given the current state of funds right now across the Country this is probably a very good time to negociate.
 
Cash is bound to be tight with the Lister refurb and portacabin rent-a-hospital room thing so persuade them to extend at the QE2 for essential services. I'm not talking about a massive footprint of building work here just enough to free up space inside so the rest of the hospital can be enhanced over a longer period of time.
 
This would be far more economic than the Lister option we currently have plus it's a reasonable compromise for the residents of Welwyn Hatfield.
 
Obviously i would love to have a brand new Hospital but sadly that option is the most expensive and while we do have things we could cut to make up the money the military would be one of the hardest things to cut as apart from actual cuts to the workforce it's quite bleak behind the wire, i would go as far as saying more run down than the worst council estate in the country.
 
However now is the time to strike out at the PCT with options. It'll be a hard sell but not impossible.
 
 
ft
 
 
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jonmorris

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Re: Ignorant health bosses cheer on QE2 closure
« Reply #34 on: July 29, 2009, 11:44:24 PM »
Please excuse my ignorance but is 'urgent care centre' like A&E. If me or my wife had an accident, could I go to the QEII urgent care centre and be treated as I might at A&E?

I say this because A&E is rather vital, and nobody wants to be rushed miles up the road - possibly with the A1 blocked and any number of other possible issues.

If you were going for a routine check-up or operation, which was planned in advance, travelling a bit further may not be such an issue. If you have no transport, this can even be arranged - either with a booked ambulance or even just a taxi.

However, for Accident & Emergency, I really do not know what the difference is to a 'urgent care centre'???
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bbtzs

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Re: Ignorant health bosses cheer on QE2 closure
« Reply #35 on: July 30, 2009, 08:27:07 AM »

With respect bbtzs
Your post sounds like a soundbite for the Tories.

You are also making excuses for inaction.
Of course there are many costs which can be cut immediately.

Military would be one

If it were a soundbite for the Conservatives would there be anything wrong with that? Aren't political opininons allowed?

Being 'disgruntled' does not mean you have to lose all sense of reason. Do you actually think that you could just send the military air tickets and tell them to come home? Whether or not the action is right some kind of organised withdrawal will cost for quite a while yet. Doing away with Trident, maybe, but as the expenditure is for the future, dream on about it building hospitals for a couple of years.
I agree cuts can be implemented straight away but regrettably the bureaucrats we have paid to install the costs and waste our money dont have a clue how to get out of it.

Even now more money is being wasted in WGC with new crossings that are just a job creation scheme. In order to save costs and reduce our deficits we need to cut back on jobs in the public sector very drastically. Then if the persons who lose their jobs are not to become a drain, we need lots of recent uncontrolled immigrants to go home and release their jobs for the indigenous population who have been moving into the State sector.
The only reason we need all these immigrants to fill jobs is because the state sector has been growing like 'topsy'. It is the Labour party under the counter way of installing a Socialist state by making 50% dependant on it. Then, as turkeys dont vote for Christmas, you have secured your future in Government and the decline will accelerate.

Politically I will vote for almost anyone who will get these dangerous socialists out as soon as possible. They dress as decent folk but are sleepwalking us to destruction.

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MikeHobday

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Re: Ignorant health bosses cheer on QE2 closure
« Reply #36 on: July 30, 2009, 08:40:08 AM »
Please excuse my ignorance but is 'urgent care centre' like A&E. If me or my wife had an accident, could I go to the QEII urgent care centre and be treated as I might at A&E?

I say this because A&E is rather vital, and nobody wants to be rushed miles up the road - possibly with the A1 blocked and any number of other possible issues.

If you were going for a routine check-up or operation, which was planned in advance, travelling a bit further may not be such an issue. If you have no transport, this can even be arranged - either with a booked ambulance or even just a taxi.

However, for Accident & Emergency, I really do not know what the difference is to a 'urgent care centre' ???
Jon,
According to the Primary Care Trust, who are currently setting up an urgent care centre in Hemel Hempstead (and I'm assuming this is the basis for their plans for the QEII):
Quote
- from http://www.wherts-pct.nhs.uk/Category.asp?cat=1355
The urgent care centre will be able to see and treat about 65% of people who currently attend the existing A&E department and will be open 7 days a week.

...It is a unit for patients with accidental injuries and medical emergencies that do not need intensive or specialist care. This includes cuts, broken limbs and scalds. [/]
[][/]
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mythoughts

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Re: Ignorant health bosses cheer on QE2 closure
« Reply #37 on: July 30, 2009, 08:57:11 AM »
Please excuse my ignorance but is 'urgent care centre' like A&E. If me or my wife had an accident, could I go to the QEII urgent care centre and be treated as I might at A&E?

I say this because A&E is rather vital, and nobody wants to be rushed miles up the road - possibly with the A1 blocked and any number of other possible issues.

If you were going for a routine check-up or operation, which was planned in advance, travelling a bit further may not be such an issue. If you have no transport, this can even be arranged - either with a booked ambulance or even just a taxi.

However, for Accident & Emergency, I really do not know what the difference is to a 'urgent care centre' ???
Jon,
According to the Primary Care Trust, who are currently setting up an urgent care centre in Hemel Hempstead (and I'm assuming this is the basis for their plans for the QEII):
Quote
- from [url=http://www.wherts-pct.nhs.uk/Category.asp?cat=1355]http://www.wherts-pct.nhs.uk/Category.asp?cat=1355
The urgent care centre will be able to see and treat about 65% of people who currently attend the existing A&E department and will be open 7 days a week.

...It is a unit for patients with accidental injuries and medical emergencies that do not need intensive or specialist care. This includes cuts, broken limbs and scalds. [/][/][/][/][/][/url]
[][/]



Did the PCT lie then when, DURING THE CONSULTATION, it said:

Urgent care centre
An urgent care centre is a facility which manages patients who arrive at a locality hospital with accidental injuries and medical emergencies, but do not need intensive or specialist care. Approximately 85% of the work which currently goes through a typical accident and emergency department could be dealt with at this service.
---------------------------
After the consultation, the figure has gone down to only 65% according to Mike's link to the West Herts PCT (BUT SEE BELOW). Big difference. Very big.

http://www.enherts-pct.nhs.uk/consultation/Content.asp?id=SX4168-A77F6836
 
And is the East of England Ambulance Service continuing with its dumbing down strategy despite being rumbled on this very forum earlier in the year?:
 
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1201620/Student-paramedics-sent-999-calls-staffing-shortages.html
 
http://www.shapps.com/forum/index.php/topic,4508.0.html

Oh, and by the way, regarding the planned UCC for the QEII, the East North Herts Trust is now saying that only 60 per cent will be treated at an UCC opposed to the A&E....Going down, down down:
 
http://www.enherts-tr.nhs.uk/OurChangingHospitals/HospitalsQEIIUrgentCareCentre.html
 
Clearly, the ENHERTS Trust disagrees with the West Herts PCT but both are miles away from what we were promised during the consultation. SHOCKING!!!
 
Lies or incompetence, which is it?
 
 
 

 
« Last Edit: July 30, 2009, 09:27:50 AM by mythoughts »
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MikeHobday

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Re: Ignorant health bosses cheer on QE2 closure
« Reply #38 on: July 30, 2009, 09:40:13 AM »
Congratulations, MT, for pulling this research together. This is a disgrace, and I'm onto it right now.
Let's see what they say! I'll publish replies here.
Mike
 
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mythoughts

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Re: Ignorant health bosses cheer on QE2 closure
« Reply #39 on: July 30, 2009, 09:44:36 AM »
You're welcome.
 
http://www.enherts-pct.nhs.uk/Documents/getinvolved/board/2009/july/H%20%20UCC%20Recc%20of%20Award%20Part%201.pdf
     
They'll probably spin out control and add a new dimension as per the minutes of their meeting last week regarding Hertford and Cheshunt:
 

"The purpose of the UCC is to:

♦ [/]Increase accessibility – ensure 85% of Hertfordshire’s population canaccess urgent care facilities within 20 minutes and 97% can access urgent
care within 30 minutes"
 
http://www.enherts-pct.nhs.uk/Documents/getinvolved/board/2009/july/H%20%20UCC%20Recc%20of%20Award%20Part%201.pdf
 
They are all over the place.And note who was the cheapest bidder offering less staffing levels at reduced cost...these (Hertford and Cheshunt) UCCs are not even going to be open 24 hours a day...more like 12 hours a day max! Will the WGC UCC only be open 12 hours a day too...???

 
"Urgent care centres are a new idea for Hertfordshire. Run by doctors and nurses and in many cases open 24 hours a day,"
Did they deliberately use the words "in many cases" when referring to the QEII UCC... which will it be? Is this yet more trickery?

When you factor that in against A&E being open 24 hours a day the service will be even worse in terms of the number of people treated irrespective of reason for attending. Madness.
 
So, is the door half open or half closed?
« Last Edit: July 30, 2009, 10:44:47 AM by mythoughts »
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disgruntled

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Re: Ignorant health bosses cheer on QE2 closure
« Reply #40 on: July 30, 2009, 10:57:36 AM »




Quote
If it were a soundbite for the Conservatives would there be anything wrong with that? Aren't political opininons allowed?

Yes there would bbtzs. You are diluting the issues raised on this thread as a result of Grants posturing by bringing partisan politics into it. Far better that you produce the good work posted further on by mythoughts, which brings into focus the way we, the tax paying public, are being mislead and are having our hard earned funds squandered. The name of the party in power is irrelevant in that context. Consider this. Do you think your point on parties enhances the care afforded the child of the poster earlier in this thread?

Quote
Being 'disgruntled' does not mean you have to lose all sense of reason

Indeed. Quite the opposite in fact.

Quote
Do you actually think that you could just send the military air tickets and tell them to come home?

What?  :D

Quote
Then if the persons who lose their jobs are not to become a drain, we need lots of recent uncontrolled immigrants to go home and release their jobs for the indigenous population who have been moving into the State sector.
The only reason we need all these immigrants to fill jobs is because the state sector has been growing like 'topsy'. It is the Labour party under the counter way of installing a Socialist state by making 50% dependant on it. Then, as turkeys dont vote for Christmas, you have secured your future in Government and the decline will accelerate.

 ;D ;D So New labour is Socialist? :o
And all the poor administration is down to immigration?
You could not make it up could you.....
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disgruntled

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Re: Ignorant health bosses cheer on QE2 closure
« Reply #41 on: July 30, 2009, 11:02:03 AM »
You're welcome.
 
http://www.enherts-pct.nhs.uk/Documents/getinvolved/board/2009/july/H%20%20UCC%20Recc%20of%20Award%20Part%201.pdf
     
They'll probably spin out control and add a new dimension as per the minutes of their meeting last week regarding Hertford and Cheshunt:
 

"The purpose of the UCC is to:

♦ [/]Increase accessibility – ensure 85% of Hertfordshire’s population canaccess urgent care facilities within 20 minutes and 97% can access urgent
care within 30 minutes"
 
http://www.enherts-pct.nhs.uk/Documents/getinvolved/board/2009/july/H%20%20UCC%20Recc%20of%20Award%20Part%201.pdf
 
They are all over the place.And note who was the cheapest bidder offering less staffing levels at reduced cost...these (Hertford and Cheshunt) UCCs are not even going to be open 24 hours a day...more like 12 hours a day max! Will the WGC UCC only be open 12 hours a day too...???

 
"Urgent care centres are a new idea for Hertfordshire. Run by doctors and nurses and in many cases open 24 hours a day,"
Did they deliberately use the words "in many cases" when referring to the QEII UCC... which will it be? Is this yet more trickery?

When you factor that in against A&E being open 24 hours a day the service will be even worse in terms of the number of people treated irrespective of reason for attending. Madness.
 
So, is the door half open or half closed?


Brilliant stuff Mythoughts.

As well as Mr Hobday investigating this I would have thought our sitting MP would be enraged by this and be sitting in the offices of the PCT in Parkway right now giving Ms Ann Walker a grilling, and perhaps suggesting she resign?

What say you Grant?

Or are you to busy laughing at "Dave's" gaff yesterday, calling people "twats"
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kaz

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Re: Ignorant health bosses cheer on QE2 closure
« Reply #42 on: July 30, 2009, 11:27:06 AM »
Re the GP led health centre on Ascots Lane I drive past it most days and it looks very underutilised.  The facility is costing a fortune.  Pulse magazine recently looked at the costs of GP led centres compared to what we already had in place - this is what they found:
 
quote:
 ' Our investigation shows funding per patient at GP-led health centres is almost three times as high on average, and in some cases as much as seven times as high, as at GMS practices.
Some 25 PCTs released details of contracts under the Freedom of Information Act, although many more refused, claiming the release of figures would prejudice future tendering processes.
Trusts are paying an average of £180.92 per registered patient to GP-led health centres in their first year, far outstripping estimated average funding of £63.24 per patient for GMS and £78.63 for PMS contracts'.
 
unquote.
 
the report went on to say that the Department of Health said it had issued guidance urging (why not MAKE them?) PCT's to do 'local evaluation' of GP led health centres.
 
Mike / Grant please enquire if our PCT have/are evaluating the GP led centre as it looks like one big, very expensive white elephant, no wonder Lord Darzi stepped down before the poo hits the fan. 
 
 
 
 
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MikeHobday

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Re: Ignorant health bosses cheer on QE2 closure
« Reply #43 on: July 30, 2009, 11:33:19 AM »
Mike / Grant please enquire if our PCT have/are evaluating the GP led centre as it looks like one big, very expensive white elephant... 
I'd certainly hope and expect the PCT to evaluate the new GP led centre.
But, equally, I wouldn't do the main evaluation only 1-2 months after it was set up. Very few businesses are profitable after two months, and I expect the new centre to grow over time to a stable level of operation. At the moment, too few people are aware that they can see a GP without appointment any day or evening till 8, including at weekends.

That additional access, where GP surgeries close early or have busy books, is the real benefit, and it will take a few months for the level of that benefit to be assessed.

Mike
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disgruntled

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Re: Ignorant health bosses cheer on QE2 closure
« Reply #44 on: July 30, 2009, 11:42:58 AM »
Mike / Grant please enquire if our PCT have/are evaluating the GP led centre as it looks like one big, very expensive white elephant... 
I'd certainly hope and expect the PCT to evaluate the new GP led centre.
But, equally, I wouldn't do the main evaluation only 1-2 months after it was set up. Very few businesses are profitable after two months, and I expect the new centre to grow over time to a stable level of operation. At the moment, too few people are aware that they can see a GP without appointment any day or evening till 8, including at weekends.

That additional access, where GP surgeries close early or have busy books, is the real benefit, and it will take a few months for the level of that benefit to be assessed.

Mike

I think thats a fair comment Mike.

I guess Kaz, in his post, probably reflects what we all feel.
That the local PCT will do no such thing and will continue to lie and squander our funds.
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