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[jonmorris]

http://www.whtimes.co.uk/content/whtimes/news/story.aspx?brand=WHTOnline&category=News&tBrand=HertsCambsOnline&tCategory=newslatestWHT&itemid=WEED11%20Mar%202009%2012%3A29%3A48%3A610

[mythoughts]

Oh dear! Or should I say "Odour!"  Is that why some have referred to FCC as First Cra*ital Connect?
 
Hope they sort this out...ironically, when they do, perhaps they'll run more trains in the evening that actually DO have toilets on them???
 
 

[jonmorris]

I must defend FCC at this point and emphasise that it is the 'Inter City' trains operated by National Express (and before that, GNER) that have the overflowing tanks, not the FCC trains. It's only the electric trains too, so you can identify them by the pointed front end, or the fact they have a pantograph touching the overhead wires. The diesel trains flush straight on to the track, but you're much less likely to be unlucky with someone flushing at that exact point train after train. It's also lower too, as the overflowing tanks mean the spray basically comes from near the top of the train - so it covers a much wider area.

I do agree that it would make sense for FCC to put on trains with toilets on the late night all-station stopping services. In fact, they've even gone the other way recently with some of the semi-fast services now using trains without toilets. I suspect that means they're deliberately removing toilets from these services - perhaps because of the inability to clean or empty them during those hours.

[mythoughts]

I do agree that it would make sense for FCC to put on trains with toilets on the late night all-station stopping services. In fact, they've even gone the other way recently with some of the semi-fast services now using trains without toilets. I suspect that means they're deliberately removing toilets from these services - perhaps because of the inability to clean or empty them during those hours.

OK, thanks for clarifying.
 
Re having no toilets:
 
It's not right is it? I mean, one can only hold on for so long - especially if you've been out on a works jolly or have a medical condition/disability.
 
Indeed, I can't see how they are DDA compliant without having toilets on there trains? Having said all that, I have to say I've been able to get a seat more often than I used to travelling into London over the past couple of years...then again, I often avoid peek times if I can and arrange afternoon meetings.

[jonmorris]

The 313s (the 3 and 6 car trains that mainly go in to London Moorgate) never had toilets. 'Grandfather rights' will mean that they won't need them either - unless the train is completely refurbished. If that happened, I am certain they would need DDA compliant toilets and passenger information displays with audible 'next station' alerts.

These trains were built around 1976 and, I must admit, they're in bloody good nick. They're pretty reliable too. However, they will be replaced in the next few years - with trains that will be far more modern (probably LESS reliable) with air con, toilets and even TV screens showing realtime information, news, weather etc as well as 'next stop' stuff.

After about 10pm, when services stop from Moorgate, these trains go to King's Cross and they're now being used for the late trains - even on services going beyond Welwyn Garden City. I think this is a mistake because of the lack of toilets, even though they're 6-car instead of the 4-car you'd have with the other trains that do have toilets.

Then again, have you seen the state of the toilets on the late services? It probably is far better to hold it, or use the toilet at King's Cross (for 30p) or walk over to St Pancras where it's free - and a lot nicer.

[Ghost of Repton]

...then again, I often avoid peek times

If you locked the toilet door, they wouldn't peek. I never realised the voyeurs had specific times though :-)

[sillylily]

I was once told by a Railway worker that those 313's aren't required to have toilets for the simple reason that the longest time between stops was no more than 10 mins therefore if you are truly bursting to go then you could get off, use a toilet and catch the next train (There must be some truth in that I think as the last all station train from Kings Cross is a 317 with toilets).   Which would be fine in theory but all the toilets on stations either seem to be out of order, closed down or locked up when the station staff go home!

[mythoughts]

I was once told by a Railway worker that those 313's aren't required to have toilets for the simple reason that the longest time between stops was no more than 10 mins therefore if you are truly bursting to go then you could get off, use a toilet and catch the next train (There must be some truth in that I think as the last all station train from Kings Cross is a 317 with toilets).   Which would be fine in theory but all the toilets on stations either seem to be out of order, closed down or locked up when the station staff go home!

The toilets at WGC were out of order for yonks. And as for the ones at Finsbury Park...well, glad I was in the cubs and learnt how to tie knots is all I'll say on the matter...

[jonmorris]

When First took over, they did do an excellent job (in my opinion) of fixing up the toilets. The ones at Hatfield were horrid, but are now pretty flush (sic). I don't know about WGC, but surely they must be the same.

Potters Bar is being upgraded (not that it was that bad before) and I've also seen the ones at Hertford North which I think were modernised. Ditto at Finsbury Park.

None look that inviting from the outside, but I think you'll be surprised at the ones at Finsbury Park. They're generally clean, well lit and have modern fittings.

[I am Legion]

As for the potential health risks, he said: "We would be curious to know if there is a specific danger."

With getting covered in manure? I should think it highly likely.

More importantly it seems FCC think its acceptable to have dozens of  passengers standing per carriage in rush hour. From Finsbury Park the condition deteriorates to what I consider a dangerous level of overcrowding. When I complained I was informed by FCC that there was no evidence that overcrowding could lead to more fatalities in the event of an accident, which I  found surprising. Maybe those extra bodies act like an airbags?

[jonmorris]

I think statistically speaking, a crowded train is safer as you will cushion each other and not fly through a carriage. I kid you not.

What trains are you talking about? I've yet to get on a really crowded service at Finsbury Park, or if there has been a busy train, another one soon follows behind calling at Hatfield or WGC (either slow or semi-fast).

In many cases, during peak hours, it's better to wait for the semi-fast that's about 10-15 minutes after the all station service - as it arrives just 4 minutes later and will be half empty.

And, for some reason, people seem to love standing. A 'crowded' train often has many seats despite people standing up in the aisle or vestibule!

A new timetable kicks in during May, so a lot of these services will be changing and new rolling stock introduced. Some people on the outer suburban lines may be affected, with more seats but a slower service, but I think Hatfield, WGC or Potters Bar will actually be quicker, slightly.

[kaz]

re standing on trains I remember reading this article a while back:
 
Standing room only? You're more likely to be hurt in train crash Passengers forced to stand on London's overcrowded trains are three times more likely to suffer serious injuries in an accident than those who are seated. Full Story: http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/news/article-23393223-details/Standing+room+only+You%27re+more+likely+to+be+hurt+in+train+crash/article.do

[adamedwardsteather]

The thing to remember is that rail accidents are incredibly rare, so although there is a risk, it's very very small indeed.  Compare that with the 3500 who die on the roads every year (and the 10,000s seriously injured) which if a disesase would count as an dangerous epidemic.
 
I think I read once that the most dangerous part of rail travel is getting to the station, not getting the train itself.
 
Yours happily standing on the 07:30 (and occasionally getting a seat...)
 
Adam