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Author Topic: Waste treatment sites revealed - they could be near you!!!  (Read 15867 times)

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shapps

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MP writes to six companies bidding to build Herts Incinerator
« Reply #90 on: August 16, 2009, 07:55:30 AM »
I've written to the six companies currently bidding to build this unit warning them about the extent of local opposition and encouraging them to look elsewhere.  Here's the letter for your information:

Click To Enlarge

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mythoughts

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Re: Waste treatment sites revealed - they could be near you!!!
« Reply #91 on: August 16, 2009, 11:22:01 AM »
Grant, whilst I'm sure your support against New Barnfield is very welcome, you've made it clear in this letter that you would, however, support a waste incinerator at other sites within your constituency that you view as more suitable. That being so, I think you owe it to all your constituents to make it clear:
 
A) exactly where within your own constituency do you think these suitable alternatives for a waste incinerator are?
B) why do you think they are suitable?
 

 
 
« Last Edit: August 16, 2009, 11:38:13 AM by mythoughts »
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shapps

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Re: Waste treatment sites revealed - they could be near you!!!
« Reply #92 on: August 17, 2009, 07:29:35 AM »
A) exactly where within your own constituency do you think these suitable alternatives for a waste incinerator are?

The best location would be somewhere where there are no residents nearby and where there are excellent road or rail transport links.  I would have thought that Junction 3 of the A1M which is directly on the motorway and without nearby residents would be appropriate. There is unused land to the West of the Junction. However, if whichever technology is chosen is unsafe from a health point of view, then it will not get my support regardless of location.

Quote
B) why do you think they are suitable?

It's clear that we need to recycle much more as a country, so there's basically a judgement about whether the science of Energy from Waste is right or wrong. I am going to see an actual plant in operation and will report back.
« Last Edit: April 02, 2010, 08:16:07 PM by shapps »
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MikeHobday

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Re: Waste treatment sites revealed - they could be near you!!!
« Reply #93 on: August 17, 2009, 07:38:31 AM »
To be clear. I would not support a 270,000 tonne incinerator anywhere in Welwyn Hatfield, or anywhere in Hertfordshire. Such a level of incineration adds to pollution, adds to greenhouse gasses and provides an economic disincentive to recycling. To imagine that we will not be recycling much more - and thus able to feed such a massive incinerator - in thirty years time is remarkable.
 
And since when did no one live near Roehyde?
 
Mike
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shapps

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Re: Waste treatment sites revealed - they could be near you!!!
« Reply #94 on: August 17, 2009, 07:47:33 AM »
I'll have to re-locate the research, but I was reading a background briefing from the government which argued strongly in favour of Energy from Waste. Believe it was a DEFRA paper with quotes from a Minister. Interested to hear you disagree with the government's advice on this one.

The key to location is NOT to have the waste pass by residential homes in order to access a site. After all the Nimby accusations you've made in the past I'm quite surprised to hear that you don't believe that this particular form of recycling should take place anywhere at all in Hertfordshire.

You were going to let us know about the numbers on your petition?

Grant

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dizzy

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Re: Waste treatment sites revealed - they could be near you!!!
« Reply #95 on: August 17, 2009, 08:57:29 AM »
I feel strongly about the siting of incinerators,I agree that nowhere in herts is the ideal but common sense may have to prevail.The important issue is Not On Barnfield or any where near housing,If the powers that b say there must be one in herts,than I think we all know as with past issues how ever much we protest we are wasting our breath!!!Our only hope is to major on the unsuitable aspect of barnfieldnhaving as much in the way of facts and figues as we can get.
 I m very pleased to hear that Grant will go and visit a site,then we will have some facts as seen by him,
It is a huge issue and one that I geuss some other  county councils are watching with interest.
I hope we will all pull as one Action For Hatfield it appears politics and sniping does our cause no good !!!!
There is a saying do not critiscise if one has not an alternative to offer,and that at least Grant is trying to do. We need more informed experts suggesting other choices so as to show the county council etc we are serious.We all know that waste has to go somewhere no one can deny that.
I hope the meeting will bring forth a lot of considered argument against the proposal and not just a lot of hot air.There were some good speakers at the previous ones.
I also hope some reps from the county council will attend to hear the views and that ALL political parties will be represented this time.
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MikeHobday

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Re: Waste treatment sites revealed - they could be near you!!!
« Reply #96 on: August 17, 2009, 12:25:33 PM »
I'll have to re-locate the research, but I was reading a background briefing from the government which argued strongly in favour of Energy from Waste. Believe it was a DEFRA paper with quotes from a Minister. Interested to hear you disagree with the government's advice on this one.
Always happy to put principle and local residents first :)
I've been campaigning against incinerators for almost twenty years now, and it will take more than a Defra document to persuade me that Herts County Council have got it right!

I'm quite surprised to hear that you don't believe that this particular form of recycling should take place anywhere at all in Hertfordshire.
Let me surprise you even more - I don't believe that burning rubbish is recycling. Considered over the life cycle of any given item, it uses up rather than produces energy. The forms of rubbish most conducive to energy production - paper and plastic - should be amongst the easiest to recycle. At least over a thirty year timetable.

Mike
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mythoughts

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Re: Waste treatment sites revealed - they could be near you!!!
« Reply #97 on: August 17, 2009, 03:21:44 PM »
Wasn't the Roehyde Junction viewed as one of two possible sites for the Superhospital that the Government reneged on? Not that we'll ever see the prospect of that realised.
« Last Edit: August 17, 2009, 04:14:17 PM by mythoughts »
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Paul Zukowskyj

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Re: Waste treatment sites revealed - they could be near you!!!
« Reply #98 on: August 18, 2009, 10:01:08 AM »
Perhaps surprisingly I can add that I wholeheartedly agree with virtually everything Mike has said in this thread over the last couple of days. Burning waste is NOT recycling in any meaning of the term I'm familiar with. The plastic content of the waste stream is derived from fossil fuels, and burning it therefore releases fossil carbon into the atmosphere as carbon dioxide. If we're serious about climate change, we should not be looking to construct plants that will release fossil carbon into the atmosphere for the next 30 years.
 
I'm also concerned that Grant is going to visit a plant to find out more. The operators of such plants are clearly biased and will select portions of scientific studies that support their arguments. Any reputable objective scientist would view their conclusions with a very great deal of skepticism. The data they produce is also very skewed. Take the argument long put forward that energy from waste has a smaller carbon footprint than alternatives. The comparison is ALWAYS with coal-fired power generation, however gas-fired power generation is around half as polluting as coal. Their method of calculation is also skewed to the worst-case scenario for alternatives and the best case scenario for energy from waste.
 
I have some concerns about the DEFRA report (mentioned earlier) being impartial too. Publications on scientific matters by government organisations can be skewed by political desires (intentionally or unintentionally), the 'dodgy dossier' being the most obvious case, but anyone who knows any details about climate change funding and support in the US under George Bush will be able to list a raft of other cases. The clearest case of this in the case of New Barnfield is the County assertion that '94% of people support energy from waste'. I saw the original survey, and the wording was so clearly biased that anyone trying to publish that result in a scientific publication as being objective would be laughed at. The structure of the survey and the wording used was clearly structured to produce a politically useful result.
 
I therefore urge Grant to look for a scientifically impartial assessment of the issues and not be swayed by commercial lobbyists looking to put across their argument in a biased way.
 
Paul Zukowskyj
Welwyn Hatfield Liberal Democrat Prospective MP
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Re: Waste treatment sites revealed - they could be near you!!!
« Reply #99 on: August 18, 2009, 10:15:22 AM »
To add to the above discussion, the following peer-reviewed paper summarises the health issues from 43 previous peer-reviewed studies of the impact of waste incineration across Europe. Not everyone will have access to this, but on request I will be happy to let you have a copy to borrow to read.
 
Health effects of exposure to waste incinerator emissions: a review of epidemiological studies. 2004. [/]FRANCHINI M; RIAL M; BUIATTI E; BIANCHI F. Annali dell' Istituto superiore di sanità, vol. 40, no1, pp. 101-115
 
The conclusion of the above paper is that whilst more modern plants have less health impact than plants burning hazardous waste and older plants, there is still evidence of clusters of cancers around newer plants, particularly lung cancer clusters. The paper does allow that confounding error from other known causes (particularly smoking) may not be fully accounted for (this is incredibly complicated and difficult to get right), but the conclusion is pretty stark that having a plant nearby really does seem to increase lung cancer incidence as well as a couple of other types of cancer.
 
I hope this helps add to the debate.
 
Paul
Welwyn Hatfield Liberal Democrat Prospective MP
 
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Re: Waste treatment sites revealed - they could be near you!!!
« Reply #100 on: August 18, 2009, 10:39:43 AM »
I am so pleased to see such a wealth of info given to us.I am sure that the county council if they are following this site will see that the subject is being taken very seriouslyI hope paul will attend the meeting as his research is so important.The possible  clusters of lung cancer make this even more important that barnfield is written out of the  scenario.
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mythoughts

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Re: Waste treatment sites revealed - they could be near you!!!
« Reply #101 on: August 18, 2009, 10:51:22 AM »
I am so pleased to see such a wealth of info given to us.I am sure that the county council if they are following this site will see that the subject is being taken very seriouslyI hope paul will attend the meeting as his research is so important.The possible  clusters of lung cancer make this even more important that barnfield is written out of the  scenario.


I think research like this actually indicates that a wholehearted campaign should be focussed against these monstrous machines anywhere to be honest, not just New Barnfield. For example, what if the battle against NB is won...will there then be enough puff left to fight off a similar attack at any of the other reference sites?
« Last Edit: August 18, 2009, 11:01:04 AM by mythoughts »
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Mighty Hatfield

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Re: Waste treatment sites revealed - they could be near you!!!
« Reply #102 on: August 18, 2009, 11:44:28 AM »
I am so pleased to see such a wealth of info given to us.I am sure that the county council if they are following this site will see that the subject is being taken very seriouslyI hope paul will attend the meeting as his research is so important.The possible  clusters of lung cancer make this even more important that barnfield is written out of the  scenario.


I think research like this actually indicates that a wholehearted campaign should be focussed against these monstrous machines anywhere to be honest, not just New Barnfield. For example, what if the battle against NB is won...will there then be enough puff left to fight off a similar attack at any of the other reference sites?

I agree. As someone who started looking at this long ago with a very n.i.m.b.y attitude, the more ive learnt about the science of incineration, the more i am horrified that these things exist ANYWHERE.

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Paul Zukowskyj

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Re: Waste treatment sites revealed - they could be near you!!!
« Reply #103 on: August 18, 2009, 01:11:06 PM »

I agree. As someone who started looking at this long ago with a very n.i.m.b.y attitude, the more ive learnt about the science of incineration, the more i am horrified that these things exist ANYWHERE.



Whilst the paper I gave the reference to above indicates a possible link with three types of cancer clusters, you should be aware that the evidence for health impacts from proximity to landfill sites is much more concrete and clear. Birth deformities clusters around landfill sites are well documented. Our waste contributes to this. We have to dispose of our rubbish somehow, and simply saying "no incineration" without providing an alternative is an incomplete argument. Landfill is becoming a much less accessible option (not for any blithe climate change arguments that incinerator companies might send to you, but because we're running out of holes in the ground to stick the stuff in).

Whichever solution is looked at there are problems and concerns.

As far as I can see the best option is to process the waste stream to maximise recycling, whilst putting real pressure on companies that produce and sell material that ends up as waste to reduce the amount they produce. It is currently possible to recycle/reuse around 80% of the waste stream, with government commitment to financially penalise packaging that is excessive and non-recyclable, this could easily reach 98%.

In the interim, biological treatment of organic based waste makes sense. This produces compost/fertiliser and actually delays the release of biogenic carbon back into the atmosphere. The sum result is a REDUCTION in CO2 in the air. Treatment of plastics waste by either recycling or pyrolysis means fossil carbon is kept locked up (unless the carbon blocks are subsequently burnt - but they can be treated and used as soil improver, again keeping CO2 locked up). Both processes produce gases that can be burnt relatively cleanly for power generation and whilst some CO2 is released, it is MUCH less significant than landfill emissions or incinerator emissions, and the CO2 is primarily from biogenic carbon sources (ones that lock up CO2, like plants/trees).

There are numerous options for treating the waste that are more environmentally friendly, but these are not on the table, mainly because the council decided they were not 'established' enough technology to deal with all the waste we need to handle. One of the reasons we have so much of course, is the poor performance of many Herts districts in recycling. Welwyn Hatfield recycles around 44% of waste, but of course counts brown-bin garden waste in that figure. In terms of a proportion going into black bags, the number is vanishingly small. The fact that tin can recycling collections only started last year is a damning indictment of the poor commitment to recycling in this borough. I recently visited my parents in Bury. There they have separate collections for general waste, garden and kitchen waste, glass, cans, paper and even a collection for cardboard. Apparently it is considered important enough to do there, but WH can't do that as it would cost more, despite the idea that cost is relative and to not do this is selling our future short.

Unfortunately, whatever we do with our waste will need a location for processing. Having looked in some detail at the assessment of sites and considered where in WH I would find a site least offensive, I have to say that Roehyde is probably top of the list. I'd prefer not to have a site in WH at all, but I suspect because of the Borough's central location in Hertfordshire, that's probably less than likely to happen. I most certainly don't want an incinerator there, or anywhere else for that matter.

Paul Zukowskyj
Welwyn Hatfield Liberal Democrat Prospective MP
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mythoughts

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Re: Waste treatment sites revealed - they could be near you!!!
« Reply #104 on: August 18, 2009, 05:29:46 PM »
Quote
Birth deformities clusters around landfill sites are well documented

That's very frightening. Did you know that HUGE parts of Welwyn Garden City and Wheathampstead are built on old landfill sites?

Quote
I recently visited my parents in Bury. There they have separate collections for general waste, garden and kitchen waste, glass, cans, paper and even a collection for cardboard. Apparently it is considered important enough to do there, but WH can't do that as it would cost more, despite the idea that cost is relative and to not do this is selling our future short.

 
The same goes for the middle of Dartmoor!

Also, and you may know the answer to this Paul, why does Hertfordshire import so much of its waste from London??? Haven't got enough of our own to deal with?
« Last Edit: August 18, 2009, 05:35:32 PM by mythoughts »
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