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[shapps]

I dont see anything odd or wrong with a tory MP opposing a plan by Tory county councillors. 

Nor do I, but Grant Shapps is remarkably ineffective at persuading his party colleagues of the case for Hatfield - look at the closure of New Briars, a popular and successful school!
What's the point in having a Tory MP if he can't even persuade fellow Tories not to dump on the town?

Mike, I think it's easy to shout about these things from afar, living as you do in St Albans, but for me schools opening and closing in this area is personal. I send my three children to our local primary and if that school or any other in Welwyn Hatfield was under threat then I would do everything possible to save it, regardless of who was running County Hall. What's more I would rather suffer the embarrassment of losing that battle, than the embarrassment of never having even tried.

Your argument about effectiveness is really very childish as you well know. Melanie Johnson, the former Labour MP for Welwyn Hatfield, and I joined forces to try to prevent a previous school closure at Hazel Grove. We weren't successful, but at no point did I try to pretend it was because she was an ineffective MP. That's just silly.

You well know that decisions about schools and other facilities opening and closing are complex matters for which we don't always have a casting vote as individual politicians. But if you want to have a proper argument about why we've reached this point of disconnect then look no further than the way in which power has been stripped away from local people by successive parties of both colours and we can start to understand. This is one of the reasons why we want to scrap the quangos and the regionalisation and the government-knows-best approach to many of these issues and allow for example good schools to expand and bad ones to close.

But please, let's at least you and I have a mature level of debate on this Forum in order to lead by example.  If you seriously think that the reason that New Briars closed was because political advocacy was insufficiently strong, rather than because the system itself is dud, then you've really missed the point of why we need change in this country so badly.

Best wishes,
Grant.

[MikeHobday]

But if you want to have a proper argument about why we've reached this point of disconnect then look no further than the way in which power has been stripped away from local people by successive parties of both colours and we can start to understand.

By all means, let's debate this.

I suggest that the Tories at County Hall:
1. decided without Government pressure to close a successful and popular New Briars School (and let's add Hazel Grove to the indictment if you wish);
2. decided without Government pressure to endorse the principle of incineration instead of recycling;
3. decided without Government pressure to choose New Barnfield as their preferred site for an incinerator.

Let's not pretend that everything in life is down to Government. Some issues are down to you, and I, and everyone making personal choices. Some decisions are made by quangos that neither party will abolish (or will you abolish the Primary Care Trust?). And some are made by democratically elected politicians.

When Welwyn Hatfield Conservative Association chooses Tory County Councillors who turn up to County Council cabinet meetings and dump on Welwyn Hatfield, local residents are entitled to ask why the Conservative Party treats the community so badly. Ditto for the Borough Council and the town centre.

Mike

PS Is London Colney where I live really so "afar." I've just checked on google maps, and its 7.4 miles from your home to WGC town centre, then 7.6 miles further to mine. So I'm less "local" than you by 0.2 of a mile. Is it time to stop the allegations of "afar"? Rightly, it worked well against Melanie Johnson in Cambridge, but perhaps it's time to change the approach?

[dizzy]

Please,lets stop all the sniping, this is meant to be an all party action to hopefully show county how important this issue is.no party is doing themselves any favours either hitting out or trying to justify ,can we please get on withthe job.I am really concerned at possible long term health problems from the flyash and gases.If it must happen lets try and get it to a more suitable site away from housing,.There are people who can really look at the other sites aready operating and investigate their results ,we need to know more.

[shapps]

Please,lets stop all the sniping, this is meant to be an all party action to hopefully show county how important this issue is.no party is doing themselves any favours either hitting out or trying to justify ,can we please get on withthe job.I am really concerned at possible long term health problems from the flyash and gases.If it must happen lets try and get it to a more suitable site away from housing,.There are people who can really look at the other sites aready operating and investigate their results ,we need to know more.

I absolutely agree with you. And I make a point of not making narrow political points on bit arguments like this because it's crazy to pretend that one person or party has all the answers. So let's return this thread back to the matter at hand - the incinerator. If you haven't signed the Save New Barnfield petition yet then please do here http://www.SaveNewBarnfield.com

[GhostTown68]

I have a question - how can Stuart Pile sign the petition, yet not voice any concern at the meeting about the incinerator? I'm not being facetious, or inciting trouble - I genuinely do not understand how it is possible for him to be against, and for, the incinerator at New Barnfield?
 
Have to laugh at Grant claiming to be 'from Hatfield' though, Brookmans Park is as much Welwyn Hatfield as London Colney is!
 
 

[shapps]

>> Have to laugh at Grant claiming to be 'from Hatfield' though, Brookmans Park is as much Welwyn Hatfield as London Colney is!

I beg to differ GhostTown68. Not only is Brookmans Park very much part of Welwyn Hatfield with both the constituency and the Borough claiming it, but it actually has Hatfield in the postal address! If you exclude Brookmans Park, then presumably you'd also like to disenfranchise the residents of Welham Green, Essendon, Little Heath, The Ayots, Lemsford Village, Welwyn itself (as opposed to WGC), Oaklands, Newgate Street Village, Woolmer Green, etc.  So according to you 15,000 to 20,000 of my constituents aren't really from Welwyn Hatfield.

London Colney is not in the constituency or Borough. Pretty clear cut I would have thought.

[Mighty Hatfield]

>> Have to laugh at Grant claiming to be 'from Hatfield' though, Brookmans Park is as much Welwyn Hatfield as London Colney is!

I beg to differ GhostTown68. Not only is Brookmans Park very much part of Welwyn Hatfield with both the constituency and the Borough claiming it, but it actually has Hatfield in the postal address! If you exclude Brookmans Park, then presumably you'd also like to disenfranchise the residents of Welham Green, Essendon, Little Heath, The Ayots, Lemsford Village, Welwyn itself (as opposed to WGC), Oaklands, Newgate Street Village, Woolmer Green, etc.  So according to you 15,000 to 20,000 of my constituents aren't really from Welwyn Hatfield.

London Colney is not in the constituency or Borough. Pretty clear cut I would have thought.

Constituency boundarys can change though grant, as they did when they suddenly included brookmans park. I think bringing up where you live is rather a moot point because of this. If you asked most residents of Brookmans Park, they would reply BP, not Hatfield. Also, i can claim to be from Hatfield, because I was born, bred, live and work here.

On the issue dizzy raised, i think its entirely appropriate to debate who is making the decisions, who has said what, who agrees with what etc. Lets not pretend that this idea of an incinerator is simply being imposed upon us by private companies (as herts county council claim "well we'll have to wait and see what they come up with) or, what im waiting for, that the idea is somehow being imposed on us by Gordon Brown.

There is a very clear indication of who is in control of the county council, its the tories. Pointing that out is not sniping, its factual.

[finely tuned]

I have a question - how can Stuart Pile sign the petition, yet not voice any concern at the meeting about the incinerator? I'm not being facetious, or inciting trouble - I genuinely do not understand how it is possible for him to be against, and for, the incinerator at New Barnfield?
 
Have to laugh at Grant claiming to be 'from Hatfield' though, Brookmans Park is as much Welwyn Hatfield as London Colney is!
 
 

Grant only half the question has been answered. If Stuert or yourself could explain his actions of not voicing concern at county while quite obviously signing the petition against it if might help us residents understand the reasons for his actions.

ft

[shapps]

Constituency boundarys can change though grant, as they did when they suddenly included brookmans park. I think bringing up where you live is rather a moot point because of this. If you asked most residents of Brookmans Park, they would reply BP, not Hatfield. Also, i can claim to be from Hatfield, because I was born, bred, live and work here.
 

 Of course boundaries can and do change and I stand to be corrected on this if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure that Brookmans Park has been part of Welwyn Hatfield just as long as Welwyn Hatfield has existed as a constituency which was in 1974.  If you were born in Hatfield and are older than 35 then you wouldn't have original lived in a constituency known as Welwyn Hatfield either. I think it was probably Hertford and again I believe that Hatfield, Hertford, Brookmans Park, Essendon, etc were all in the constituency together.  Again, I stand to be corrected if wrong. My point is that the constituency is made up of two towns and a large number of other areas as described above and to try to suggest that some parts are more valuable than the other is wrong. I don't consider any part of my constituency as being less important than anywhere else. That though is different from not living in the constituency and telling us what we should all think of our local services.
 
 

On the issue dizzy raised, i think its entirely appropriate to debate who is making the decisions, who has said what, who agrees with what etc. Lets not pretend that this idea of an incinerator is simply being imposed upon us by private companies (as herts county council claim "well we'll have to wait and see what they come up with) or, what im waiting for, that the idea is somehow being imposed on us by Gordon Brown.
 

 Agreed. All very legitimate debating points.
 
 
 

There is a very clear indication of who is in control of the county council, its the tories. Pointing that out is not sniping, its factual.
 

 Agreed again. That's very legitimate debate. The weak debate I was pointing to was the bit which said that because a school wasn't saved the advocacy couldn't have been strong enough. That's taking people for fools. The wider point is that what's wrong with the system is too much centralised decision making meaning that local people feel powerless to change what's happening locally.
 
 
 

[sunnyjim]

Mike

PS Is London Colney where I live really so "afar." I've just checked on google maps, and its 7.4 miles from your home to WGC town centre, then 7.6 miles further to mine. So I'm less "local" than you by 0.2 of a mile. Is it time to stop the allegations of "afar"? Rightly, it worked well against Melanie Johnson in Cambridge, but perhaps it's time to change the approach?

My views must be even more important as I live less than half that distance away

[shapps]

=== Grant only half the question has been answered. If Stuert or yourself could explain his actions of not voicing concern at county while quite obviously signing the petition against it if might help us residents understand the reasons for his actions.
 

Grant only half the question has been answered. If Stuert or yourself could explain his actions of not voicing concern at county while quite obviously signing the petition against it if might help us residents understand the reasons for his actions.

That's a question you would have to address to Stuart Pile. I am not hear to answer for anyone but me I'm afraid. You can email Cllr Pile at Stuart.Pile@herts.gov.uk

[GhostTown68]

>> Have to laugh at Grant claiming to be 'from Hatfield' though, Brookmans Park is as much Welwyn Hatfield as London Colney is!

I beg to differ GhostTown68. Not only is Brookmans Park very much part of Welwyn Hatfield with both the constituency and the Borough claiming it, but it actually has Hatfield in the postal address! If you exclude Brookmans Park, then presumably you'd also like to disenfranchise the residents of Welham Green, Essendon, Little Heath, The Ayots, Lemsford Village, Welwyn itself (as opposed to WGC), Oaklands, Newgate Street Village, Woolmer Green, etc.  So according to you 15,000 to 20,000 of my constituents aren't really from Welwyn Hatfield.

London Colney is not in the constituency or Borough. Pretty clear cut I would have thought.

 

Sorry Grant, speaking as someone who has lived in Hatfield for over 30 years, I do have to laugh quite heartily at this. Whilst technically Brookmans Park may well 'come under' Welwyn Hatfield (I'm sure your neighbours dont think that), to say it is any more part of the town than London Colney is just ridiculous, especially as its been pointed out that theres a mere 0.2 miles difference.

Considering you're asking for a 'mature level of debate' , I'm surprised your persuing this rather silly, irrelevant line of debate.

So anyway, back to Mr Pile - obviously you cant answer for him, but do you understand my confusion?

[mythoughts]

Grant:
         

• Will everyone's name that signs the petition appear on it? I ask this because the list of people (well, councillors and a Mayor) that have "signed" it has not changed since the launch;
• Who will you be submitting this petition to?;
• In the petition dialogue you mention "So there ARE other places it could go, and New Barnfield ISN'T necessarily the best place for it to go." You also mention that the site is too near residents. Are you aware that of the two sites that were mentioned for WGC a) one is already near a massive housing estate, schools and the Gosling stadium b) the other is slap bang in the middle of proposed housing developments, schools and existing houses. Sadly, the maps used during the consultation were so old they didn't show some of the new developments - an issue in itself!
• With respect to point 3, if New Barnfield is finally rejected as a site for a waste incinerator, will you and all of our councillors equally oppose any plans for a waste incinerator in WGC, indeed, anywhere else in Welwyn Hatfield?
• As Councillor Pile seems to have made himself very unpopular regarding this issue, justified or not, perhaps it would be a good idea for him to come on this site as a "guest" for a "live" questions and answers. There was talk about using the forum in this way recently, so why not now?
• To lay to rest the issue of who lives nearest to Welwyn Hatfield - you or Mike, why don't the two of you challenge each other to a running race from your respective homes to a point, the University or Campus West, from each other's door. That way we could judge who could get to meetings quickest in the most environmentally way. For charity, of course. And I will sponsor you both if you do 

[shapps]

Sorry Grant, speaking as someone who has lived in Hatfield for over 30 years, I do have to laugh quite heartily at this. Whilst technically Brookmans Park may well 'come under' Welwyn Hatfield (I'm sure your neighbours dont think that), to say it is any more part of the town than London Colney is just ridiculous, especially as its been pointed out that theres a mere 0.2 miles difference.

Yes you're right of course it's a small point of debate and rather off topic from this thread, but I absolutely hate the attempt to try to suggest that certain parts of this Borough or Constituency of Welwyn Hatfield are somehow more in Welwyn Hatfield than other place. It's not right and people who live in Welwyn Hatfield, pay their Council Tax to Welwyn Hatfield and receive their services from Welwyn Hatfield all have the exact same claim to live in Welwyn Hatfield.

Considering you're asking for a 'mature level of debate' , I'm surprised your persuing this rather silly, irrelevant line of debate.

With respect and whilst I know that you'll always be keen to defend whatever Mike's saying it really does matter. Not least because I am absolutely rigid in representing all parts of my constituency and all constituents with the same level of vigour. Your apparent belief that some people are more 'Welwyn Hatfield' than others is, I am sure quite unintentionally, a bit insulting. And this is relevant to this debate because we're talking about something (a potential incinerator) that might actually impact on the lives of those of us who live here, whereas it clearly won't physically matter to people who don't.
[/quote]

So anyway, back to Mr Pile - obviously you cant answer for him, but do you understand my confusion?

Sure. I'm an understanding chap. Drop him a line and I'm sure he'll respond direct to clear up your confusion.

Best wishes
Grant.

[MikeHobday]

Who will you be submitting this petition to?

Grant, I'm presenting the Action Hatfield petition against the incinerator to the County County waste panel at 2 pm on Wednesday 9 September. Want to come along?
Everyone else welcome of course.
Mike