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[dizzy]

lets hope i am wrong!!that also got inferred  at the last meeting i went to as well.There has been some info inthe welwyn Hatfield times lately i have also looked up incineraters  on google and there is quite a lot of info about the gases given off.not good!!
It just makes one aware that it should not be built near housing,Oh well Hatfield comes pretty low in the scheme of things for the county!!!

[mythoughts]

Something's wrong with the technology driving this petition. For example, Cllr Kieran Thorpe appears as one of the, so far, 100 per cent of councillors that have signed this  on the home page, but not on the page that gives a comprehensive list of all of those that have signed it!
 
http://www.savenewbarnfield.com/
 
http://www.savenewbarnfield.com/supporters.html
 
Very odd.
 
Furthermore, it's not clear if this is a petition, or an indication,  against any type of waste site on the New Barnfield site. Nor does it specifically argue against the concept of waste incineration in principle and focuses only on such a "dirty neighbour facility's" location. On that, would the same councillors and Grant be 100 per cent against a wase incinerator at Burrowfields, Welwyn Garden City, or on the Old Shredded Wheat site???  These are views that must also be made very clear now...ie. WE DO NOT WANT ANY WASTE INCINERATORS ANYWHERE IN WELWYN HATFIELD AT ALL.

[MikeHobday]

How cheeky of Tory County Councillors Stuart Pile and Richard Smith to sign up to this, after they had attended the two County Council cabinet meetings that chose to progress the incinerator scheme, and had completely failed to vote against the plans. I wonder if they'll vote against at the next county council cabinet meeting?
 
What would be helpful to the campaign is if Grant Shapps could persuade the 100% Tory County Council to lift its threat to Hatfield. Now that would be a victory!
 
Sadly, it's clear that Hertfordshire's Tories couldn't care less about Hatfield.

[Mighty Hatfield]

lets not forget, in the above minutes that both Mike and myself have linked to, the removal of the library (and considerable other facilities) is clearly linked to the bringing in of the incinerator (or if we want to play the game "the waste reduction option")

oh and FYI, Its the 'County Resource Library', the library which holds the stock for all libraries within Hertfordshire. What better place to site this then in the same town that houses the University of Hertfordshire?  What better immediate area to have this accomodated on than on the site which used to be Hatfield Secondary School complete with its pedestrianised walkways accessible to all?

What worse a place to burn rubbish on?  This is not a new thing (waste incineration), its an outdated way of thinking about our waste problem, and one that should be firmly binned by the Tories at County Hall. Let me be very clear, I am against incineration ANYWHERE, its a bad idea. 
 
but dont take my word for it...
 
http://www.no-burn.org/article.php?id=276

[Mighty Hatfield]

and if i may quote from the above site (as this is the sort of information that the County Council wont tell you about incineration)
 

  Burning waste has many negative environmental, social and health consequences.
 Waste incinerators do all of the following:

• Poison our environment, bodies, and food supply with toxic chemicals. Incinerators produce a variety of toxic discharges to the air, water and ground that are significant sources of a range of powerful pollutants, including dioxin and other chlorinated organic compounds that are well-known for their toxic impacts on human health and the environment. Many of these toxins enter the food supply and concentrate up through the food chain.
  

• Produce toxic byproducts. In addition to air and water emissions, incinerators create toxic ash or slag that must then be landfilled. This ash contains heavy metals, dioxins, and other pollutants, making it too toxic to reuse, although industry often tries to do so.

• Undermine waste prevention and recycling. The use of incinerators feeds a system in which a constant flow of resources needs to be pulled out of the Earth, processed in factories, shipped around the world, and burned in our communities. This one-way linear system of resource extraction, production, transportation, consumption and disposal is a system in crisis. We simply cannot sustain this pattern indefinitely on a finite planet.

• Contribute to global climate change. Incinerators emit significant quantities of direct greenhouse gases, including carbon dioxide and nitrous oxide, that contribute to global climate change. They are also large sources of indirect greenhouse gases, including carbon monoxide, nitrogen oxide, non-methane volatile organic compounds, and sulfur dioxide. In fact, incinerators emit more CO₂ per megawatt-hour than any fossil fuel-based power source - including coal-fired power plants! But their greatest contribution to climate change is through undermining waste prevention and recycling programs, and encouraging increased resource extraction.
  

• Waste energy and destroy vast quantities of resources. People selling "waste-to-energy" incinerators claim that generating energy by burning trash is a win-win solution to our waste and energy crises. The truth, however, is that incinerators actually waste energy. When burning materials that could be reused, recycled, or composted, incinerators destroy the energy-saving potential of putting those materials to better use. Recycling, for instance, saves 3 to 5 times the energy that waste incinerator power plants generate. Incinerators are also net energy losers when the embodied energy of the burned materials is taken into account. For these reasons, "waste-to-energy" plants would be more aptly named "waste-of-energy" plants.

• Drain money from local economies to pay for expensive, imported technology, and provide far fewer jobs than zero waste programs. Incinerators are bad for local economies. As the most expensive waste handling option, they compete with recycling and composting for financing and materials, and they only sustain 1 job for every 10 at a recycling facility.

• Hide the evidence of dirty and unsustainable industries. Incinerators allow dirty industries to get rid of their toxic waste and hide the impacts of their practices. These industries depend on incineration to fuel our continued use of this system of unsustainable production and consumption.
  

• Violate the principles of environmental justice. Incinerators are disproportionately sited in poor or rural communities and areas of least political power. There are currently hundreds of proposals to build incinerators in Africa, Asia, Latin America and elsewhere.

 

[Paul Zukowskyj]

I don't get how they can do this, they clearly haven't objected to it, yet they sign up to Grants campaign website?

 
It would seem there's been a recent decision to campaign against the plan now they realise the strength of public opinion against it. Are you really that surprised?
 
What did surprise me was the WHT article, 'launching' a 'specific' campaign site, where adding your name seems to add your details to the Welwyn Hatfield Conservative Associations campaign database. No opt out provided.
 
I was even more surprised by the 'start' of the petition, since our petition site, http://campaigns.libdems.org.uk/NewBarnfield has been active for more than 18 months. None of the local Conservative politicians signed ours, and it was widely publicised in the WHT and our own campaign literature (which they DO look at, I assure you!). Never say that the local Conservatives will innovate when they can 'borrow' ideas to re-invent instead.....
 
Paul
Welwyn Hatfield Liberal Democrat Prospective MP

[Mighty Hatfield]

I don't get how they can do this, they clearly haven't objected to it, yet they sign up to Grants campaign website?

Never say that the local Conservatives will innovate when they can 'borrow' ideas to re-invent instead.....
 
Paul
Welwyn Hatfield Liberal Democrat Prospective MP

Perhaps theyve decided to embrace "recycling" after all!! 

I too was suprised to see this website called the "official" petition/campaig - what makes it official? the fact that the party proposing the incinerator is the same as the one running the campaign? 

But look, we are hardly an isolated issue. This from Croydon
 

The Labour Party in Croydon has launched a clear and unambigous campaign to stop any incinerator in Croydon or nearby.
The Conservative Council has put together a plan with other Councils and has invited 26 companies to bid for the work.
The Conservatives claim they dont want an incinerator in Croydon, so why have they spent hundreds of thousands of pounds inviting companies to say how they would work with Croydon Council to build one?

[Paul Zukowskyj]

I too was suprised to see this website called the "official" petition/campaig - what makes it official? the fact that the party proposing the incinerator is the same as the one running the campaign? 

I'd say that was about it. Nothing more 'official' than a political party campaigning against itself.... And the Conservatives seem to be so good at it too! Well, they've had lots of practice.....
 
The formal reply is 'Grant is the MP, the councillors are signing as district councillors, but the plan is coming from the county council, nothing they can really do about it'. Still a bit of a conflict though, when the chair of the Waste Management Cabinet Panel, the panel whose job it is to deal with this at county level, is our very own Stuart Pile, who has signed the petition apparently! Lets hope his apparent conversion to opposition means he makes clear his opposition where it really would make a difference, on the panel and the County Cabinet!
 
Paul
Welwyn Hatfield Liberal Democrat Prospective MP
 
 
 

[finely tuned]

Theres no way Stuart Pile is going to speak out in county and go against his previous decision. He'll try to act the 'good' guy infront of the general public and force the incinerator through when in county.
We'll be lied to again, and they'll get away with it again.

What really irks me though is recycling is obviously the choice for the future. The whole world is supposed to be commited to making a greener planet for our future so why even consider the incinerator idea?
You have to ask yourself why these county idiots continue down this road? Is someone dangling a cash carrot somewhere?
Incineration is clearly not in the residents of Welwyn Hatfields best interests. So whose interest does it favour?

ft

[Peter H]

I dont see anything odd or wrong with a tory MP opposing a plan by Tory county councillors. They serve different constituents and have different mandates. they also are all entitled to their opinion. It just shows we have an MP who can think and act without following orders or the party line- a pretty good thing.
 
I think trying to make political points out of which tory is for and which against the idea is cheap and has no effect on whether or not the idea is in fact a good one or not.
 
Both Grant Shapps and Stuart Pile have made it clear that there is no proposal to put an incinerator at New Barnfield and the council is a long way off making any proposal. The council had to show there was a potential site in making their bid for PFI funding which they have now won. that saves us all money so thats a good thing!!??
 
The incinerator would be used for items which could not be recycled. I would certainly like to see some science rather than bold opinion on what pollutants are produced etc but frankly until there is a proposal to put this thing in our county (which there is not at present) a lot of the hot air and political game playing could be directed elsewhere.
 

[MikeHobday]

I dont see anything odd or wrong with a tory MP opposing a plan by Tory county councillors. 

Nor do I, but Grant Shapps is remarkably ineffective at persuading his party colleagues of the case for Hatfield - look at the closure of New Briars, a popular and successful school!
What's the point in having a Tory MP if he can't even persuade fellow Tories not to dump on the town?

[Mighty Hatfield]

I dont see anything odd or wrong with a tory MP opposing a plan by Tory county councillors. They serve different constituents and have different mandates. they also are all entitled to their opinion. It just shows we have an MP who can think and act without following orders or the party line- a pretty good thing.
 
I think trying to make political points out of which tory is for and which against the idea is cheap and has no effect on whether or not the idea is in fact a good one or not.
 
Both Grant Shapps and Stuart Pile have made it clear that there is no proposal to put an incinerator at New Barnfield and the council is a long way off making any proposal. The council had to show there was a potential site in making their bid for PFI funding which they have now won. that saves us all money so thats a good thing!!??
 
The incinerator would be used for items which could not be recycled. I would certainly like to see some science rather than bold opinion on what pollutants are produced etc but frankly until there is a proposal to put this thing in our county (which there is not at present) a lot of the hot air and political game playing could be directed elsewhere.
 

Sorry peter, but have you read any of the above posts? Let me assure you i dont have the time or inclination to make up these facts about incineration, they are very real.

[shapps]

I dont see anything odd or wrong with a tory MP opposing a plan by Tory county councillors. 

Nor do I, but Grant Shapps is remarkably ineffective at persuading his party colleagues of the case for Hatfield - look at the closure of New Briars, a popular and successful school!
What's the point in having a Tory MP if he can't even persuade fellow Tories not to dump on the town?

Mike, I think it's easy to shout about these things from afar, living as you do in St Albans, but for me schools opening and closing in this area is personal. I send my three children to our local primary and if that school or any other in Welwyn Hatfield was under threat then I would do everything possible to save it, regardless of who was running County Hall. What's more I would rather suffer the embarrassment of losing that battle, than the embarrassment of never having even tried.

Your argument about effectiveness is really very childish as you well know. Melanie Johnson, the former Labour MP for Welwyn Hatfield, and I joined forces to try to prevent a previous school closure at Hazel Grove. We weren't successful, but at no point did I try to pretend it was because she was an ineffective MP. That's just silly.

You well know that decisions about schools and other facilities opening and closing are complex matters for which we don't always have a casting vote as individual politicians. But if you want to have a proper argument about why we've reached this point of disconnect then look no further than the way in which power has been stripped away from local people by successive parties of both colours and we can start to understand. This is one of the reasons why we want to scrap the quangos and the regionalisation and the government-knows-best approach to many of these issues and allow for example good schools to expand and bad ones to close.

But please, let's at least you and I have a mature level of debate on this Forum in order to lead by example.  If you seriously think that the reason that New Briars closed was because political advocacy was insufficiently strong, rather than because the system itself is dud, then you've really missed the point of why we need change in this country so badly.

Best wishes,
Grant.

[MikeHobday]

But if you want to have a proper argument about why we've reached this point of disconnect then look no further than the way in which power has been stripped away from local people by successive parties of both colours and we can start to understand.

By all means, let's debate this.

I suggest that the Tories at County Hall:
1. decided without Government pressure to close a successful and popular New Briars School (and let's add Hazel Grove to the indictment if you wish);
2. decided without Government pressure to endorse the principle of incineration instead of recycling;
3. decided without Government pressure to choose New Barnfield as their preferred site for an incinerator.

Let's not pretend that everything in life is down to Government. Some issues are down to you, and I, and everyone making personal choices. Some decisions are made by quangos that neither party will abolish (or will you abolish the Primary Care Trust?). And some are made by democratically elected politicians.

When Welwyn Hatfield Conservative Association chooses Tory County Councillors who turn up to County Council cabinet meetings and dump on Welwyn Hatfield, local residents are entitled to ask why the Conservative Party treats the community so badly. Ditto for the Borough Council and the town centre.

Mike

PS Is London Colney where I live really so "afar." I've just checked on google maps, and its 7.4 miles from your home to WGC town centre, then 7.6 miles further to mine. So I'm less "local" than you by 0.2 of a mile. Is it time to stop the allegations of "afar"? Rightly, it worked well against Melanie Johnson in Cambridge, but perhaps it's time to change the approach?

[dizzy]

Please,lets stop all the sniping, this is meant to be an all party action to hopefully show county how important this issue is.no party is doing themselves any favours either hitting out or trying to justify ,can we please get on withthe job.I am really concerned at possible long term health problems from the flyash and gases.If it must happen lets try and get it to a more suitable site away from housing,.There are people who can really look at the other sites aready operating and investigate their results ,we need to know more.